Technical_2006-03-14
09:00 Keybuk ok
09:00 Keybuk by my clock, it is now 8pm
09:00 GFDL ok
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09:00 Cached So we just get to watch them have all the fun?
09:00 Keybuk sabdfl and mdz are aware today, so I'm driving
09:00 Keybuk mjg59 is here, so we are quorate
09:00 mjg59 s/aware/away/
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09:00 Keybuk uh, yes
09:00 Keybuk I didn't say my driving was any good :)
09:00 raphink yes it's o'clock now
09:00 Keybuk IMPORTANT NOTE
09:00 Keybuk THIS IS NOT A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE DAPPER DELAY
09:01 mjg59 Ok. There's a lot on the agenda. What order are we going to take this in?
09:01 Keybuk If you wanted to attend those meetings, you missed them, sorry; read the IRC logs
and posted summaries to find out what happened
09:01 Keybuk We'll be going down the usual TB agenda, and if your hot topic isn't on there ...
*now* ... please wait until the end of the meeting
09:01 ogra wow, sladen owns the agenda
09:01 Keybuk mjg59: top-down I guess
09:01 raphink hehe
09:01 Keybuk unless there is anyone here who has an agenda item and needs to make a fast exit?
09:02 Kamion I'd like to get away soon, but I'm early on the agenda anyway
09:02 Keybuk Kamion: let's do you first then, as I think we have a few candiates today
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09:02 Keybuk floor is yours
09:02 ogra i think the first topic is a no brainer
"Should we produce new installer and CD images for this [WWW] serious installer
vulnerability? At present, users installing Breezy must make sure to upgrade from
09:02 Kamion -security before adding any other local users, which I think will result in a
number of vulnerable systems in practice. On the other hand, it's not as if we can
rev shipit CDs at this point."
09:02 Kamion link being http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-262-1, in case anyone somehow managed to
miss it
09:03 GFDL Kamion, I wanted to ask that too in todays meeting
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09:03 Kamion so, we regained a fair bit of the enormously bad press from the vulnerability by
doing a same-day fix
09:03 Kamion a number of people asked whether we'd be making updated images available
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09:04 Keybuk Kamion: how much work would it be to make updated images?
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09:04 Keybuk I guess only -install matters?
Kamion: if the CD images are just a rebuild, yes. If shipit CDs are going to
09:04 sladen continue being posted through the 6-week extension, yes. And if not, other people
like cheeplinux and private pressers may benefit
09:04 Kamion I chatted briefly to mdz about it, and he said he didn't see a great need, but
didn't really clarify why
09:04 ogra Kamion, would be helpful for iso downloaders, dapper is still not stable, so we'd
save people from the bug
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09:04 Kamion I don't have a good reason not to other than "might be a fair bit of work", which I
don't think really cuts it for a problem this serious
09:04 mjg59_ Network problems appear at the most inopportune moments
09:04 Kamion frankly
09:04 ogra the prob i see is an out-of-sync with shipit
09:04 Kamion Keybuk: yes, -live isn't affected
09:05 ogra since we wont press new ones
09:05 Kamion ogra: that's a downside, but we can label it clearly
09:05 Kamion Keybuk: there is a certain amount of faff involved
09:05 mjg59_ What is the shipit process? Are they actually pressed in large batches, or more on
an on-demand basis?
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09:05 Kamion if I'm going to fix it properly, we need to somehow get a rebuild of
debian-installer into breezy-updates
09:05 pitti Kamion: can't we give the updated CD a new version number?
Kamion: could you take the previous CD and just hack it with the fixed package,
09:05 sladen rather than building completely fresh CDs from the archive with all the other
updates on them?
09:05 minghua I think releasing a CD with different name (5.10a?) also raise the awareness of
said bug
09:05 minghua which is good
09:05 Kamion pitti: that's part of labelling
09:05 pitti Kamion: so that we don't change the original images?
09:05 pitti ah
09:05 Kamion sladen: that's bloody hard work in this case and I won't
09:05 ajmitch Kamion: would it solely be this fix included, or others from breezy-updates?
09:05 Keybuk my gut says that because the vulnerability is in the installer, there's more of a
reason to update the CDs than the usual security reasons
09:06 Kamion er, breezy-security not breezy-updates I mean
09:06 Kamion ajmitch: breezy-security, and probably a roll-up of all fixes to date
09:06 fooishbar D
09:06 fooishbar (sorry.)
09:06 Kamion which may not be a bad thing anyway
09:06 sladen Kamion: bloody hard work --- rebuilding the whole CD, or just replacing the broken
package?
09:06 mjg59_ Kamion: I think from a PR point of view, it would be advantageous to avoid shipping
CD images we know to have a major problem
09:06 pitti I got several mails and IRC questions about when we'll release new CDs, so users
expect it
09:06 mjg59_ The shipit problem is presumably insurmountable, so should just be ignored in this
case
09:06 Kamion so, the hard bit is that the correct fix for this problem is spread over a lot of
places
09:07 Kamion there are core problems in cdebconf, which I've fixed in d-i svn
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09:07 Kamion fixing those also requires rebuilding debian-installer (to update the initrd)
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if we (or should I say Kamion) was to do this, we could put all securityfixes in to
09:07 dholbach such a release CD - but we didn't really do "security CDs" before, so I don't see
the need why we should do it now
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09:07 mjg59 Keybuk: Should we do the more pressing stuff ahead of the candidate review?
09:07 Kamion initial-passwd-udeb should be fixed to make sure to clear out the password from the
database
09:08 ogra dholbach, because the flaw is somewhat bigger ...
09:08 Kamion and prebaseconfig and installation-report need to be changed to make the logs
world-unreadable
09:08 ogra and it might get us good press as well ...
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09:08 pitti dholbach: well, it leaves a trivial gaping root hole for peopel who install from
CDs; it's the worst hole we had so far
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09:08 Kamion dholbach: it's harder *not* to include everything else in breezy-security than it
is just to include it
09:08 mjg59_ Kamion: Are there any especially awkward problems, or is it just something that
takes time?
09:08 Keybuk My vote is to update the CDs, I think; it seems prudent
sladen: fixes in lots of places, would have to establish a well-publicised source
09:09 Kamion repository somewhere to satisfy GPL etc. - less work to just punt through
breezy-security frankly
09:09 dholbach Kamion: I see, then it'd make sense to discuss a security release.
09:09 ogra Keybuk++
my worry is that the new package set will be larger than the CD size, meaning that
09:09 sladen you have to drop something and the package set != to the previous Breezy install
set
09:09 Kamion I realise we've not done a security CD before, and we hoped we wouldn't have to
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09:09 Kamion which is why I brought it up here
09:09 Keybuk Kamion: we may end up doing them for dapper, given its long support cycle; it could
be a good test
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09:09 ogra yeah
09:10 pitti keybuk was faster with typing, my thought
09:10 Kamion mjg59_: figuring out how to get debian-installer into breezy-security will be the
only really hard bit; I may have to talk to cprov and Kinnison for that
09:10 zeus what would be involved in a security cd release ?
09:10 Moox Dapper desktop will be suported during 3 years. Does this mean there will be only
security updates on apps and no big update ? (eq gaim 1.5->2.0)
09:10 ogra zeus, mainly Kamion
09:10 Keybuk zeus: Kamion has just covered that
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09:10 Kamion zeus: rebuild CDs with packages from breezy + breezy-security, test lots and lots
09:10 Keybuk Moox: that is off topic; please see the Ubuntu wiki for the answer to that question
09:10 mjg59_ Kamion: Ok. If this is something that would potentially have to be done in the
dapper timeframe /anyway/, it seems reasonable
09:11 mjg59 I think security images/scheduling/candidate review/everything else might be a plan
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09:11 mjg59_ I think I'm with keybuk - it sounds like we ought to do this
we're putting in a number of changes now to make this whole class of vulnerability
09:11 Kamion impossible in the future, but obviously I wouldn't like to entirely rule out the
possibility of some other serious flaw
09:11 Seveas Kamion, if you need help testing the install CD - poke me
09:11 Keybuk Kamion: are you happy to do it? Feel free to rope in anyone else to help
(including me, given I have all three archs)
09:11 mjg59_ Anyone have any violent objections?
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09:11 Kamion I'm happy to do the code changes, but given my other responsibilities I will only
have time for cursory testing
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09:12 pitti I'm happy to help out with testing
09:12 ogra me too
it's more than a bit embarassing that the CDs going out from the factory still have
09:12 sladen that hole on them. We're lucky, if this was Microsoft, they would have to have
destoried all the stocked CDs so far and start again
09:12 Kamion sladen: point taken; let me just check sizes
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09:12 kbrooks hi.
09:12 kbrooks ping.
09:12 Keybuk sladen: I'll talk to Jane about whether we can replace the ISO images they have
09:12 Kamion sladen: we have between 5MB and 33MB free on CD images, varying by architecture
09:12 mjg59_ sladen: That's not entirely true. Windows CDs with critical security flaws have
been shipped before
09:12 Kamion in breezy
09:12 Keybuk iirc. ship-it operates in on-demand batches, so it may be possible to do it; I'm
not sure when the breezy run stops though
09:12 mjg59_ (known critical security flaws)
09:12 kbrooks can someone summarize the meeting for me?
09:13 pitti Kamion: I can't remember any security update that changed the size of the packages
*apart* from firefox
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09:13 Kamion I think we're probably safe - it seems unlikely that we would manage to suck up 5MB
09:13 Kamion kbrooks: logs are available on the web, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/
09:13 Kamion irclogs/
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09:13 pitti right, even ffox 1.0.7->1.0.8 had only trivial changes
09:13 raphink kbrooks: the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
09:13 sladen Kamion: excellent.
09:13 pitti erm, -1 on both
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09:13 Kamion pitti: ?
09:13 mjg59_ Ok. I think we've come to a consensus here.
09:14 sladen pitti: -1 on which and which?
09:14 pitti Kamion: I meant, it was 1.0.6->1.0.7, not 1.0.8
09:14 Kamion ok
09:14 pitti sorry for the confusion
09:14 Keybuk Kamion: you can name the CD version how you see fit :)
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09:14 mjg59 Kamion: You here?
09:14 Kamion yes
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I would like to wonder the possibilities of ubuntu cds essentially being
09:14 enyc autogenerated... so they can be autogenerated with 'all secutrity updates relating
to apckages in the base install CD'.... ;-)
09:14 mjg59_ Kamion: Sorry, my other session has finally caught up
09:14 Kamion enyc: sorry, at present I sit with a magnet building the CD images by hand on a
hard disk
09:15 raphink enyc: that means md5sums are not fixed with release then
09:15 Keybuk ok, let's move on
09:15 Kamion takes bloody forever, I can tell you
09:15 mjg59_ Right. Dapper rescheduling?
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09:15 enyc Kamion: I see I seee ;-) skay no matter ;-)
09:15 Keybuk so Kamion can go play
09:15 XderalteX Hi, what was the result of the meeting about postponing dapper?
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09:15 Kamion ok, thanks guys
09:15 Keybuk mjg59_: I think mdz/sabdfl want to postpone that to a combined meeting with the CC
09:15 mjg59_ Keybuk: Ugh. Right. Any idea when?
09:15 zeus Keybuk, CC ??
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09:16 Kamion enyc: (in other words, they already are autogenerated)
09:16 Keybuk given neither of them are here, and they haven't yet announced a decision wrt to
the delay, I don't see how we can talk about it :)
09:16 Keybuk mjg59_: none
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09:16 mjg59_ Ok. Candidate review?
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09:16 Keybuk "sabdfl fails to turn up for his own agenda item" :)
09:16 Kamion Mark would like the TB to look at freeze scheduling changes for dapper if the delay
is accepted
09:16 ogra mjg59_, sladen ?
09:16 enyc Kamion: ok ;-)
09:16 Kamion before the CC/TB combined discussion
09:16 Keybuk sladen: weren't you approved already?
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09:17 sladen Keybuk: to the best of my memory, yes
09:17 ogra Keybuk, but not in LP
09:17 ogra it slipped through i guess ...
09:17 Kamion it predated ubuntu-core-dev management in LP
09:17 sladen "somebody dropped lost key"
09:17 Keybuk Kamion: ok, we'll do that after candidates then
09:18 Keybuk raphink: ping?
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09:18 raphink pong
=== raphink is Raphal Pinson
09:18 raphink I've got an introduction text on my application here
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson#head-afebebcae54ad32367aef6746d6e83eb22da8218
09:18 ogra two liner ?
09:18 raphink to make it short
I am currently an active MOTU, particularly in Kubuntu. Lately, I have been
09:18 raphink focusing on fixing bugs and improving the Kubuntu desktop, working actively with
AnthonyMercatante as the Kubuntu French MOTU Team (hehe). This implies working with
packages in main, and getting them sponsored for upload afterwards.
09:19 raphink There are not that many Kubuntu MOTUs but in order to help the current lack of
Kubuntu core-devs I would like to apply for core-dev at this time.
09:19 raphink I cannot be clearer: the main reason why I'm applying is to unblock uploads to main
in Kubuntu, because I want Dapper to rock hard!
09:19 Keybuk Riddell: are you here?
09:19 Riddell I support raphink
09:19 raphink :)
09:19 Riddell he's been forwarding me fixes to packages in main
09:19 Riddell and I've been blocking when I've been busy with other stuff
09:19 ogra raphink, are you aware that you can touch *every* package in main then, even the
kernel etc ?
09:20 raphink yes ogra
09:20 ogra and do you feel ready to do that ?
09:20 Riddell his fixes rarely need any changes, he's always very thourough
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09:20 raphink ogra: I think as the MOTU team leader you know my habbit is to aask questions
before doing things I dont know
09:20 raphink I will never release a fix without asking the opinion of other people and testing
it
=== raphink spend hours testing kde fixes before giving them up to riddell lately
09:21 raphink s/spend/spent/
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09:21 ogra raphink, i trust your packaging, dont worry ... i just wanted to point out the big
responsibility that comes with main rights
09:21 Keybuk ogra: your tone sounds like you don't support his application?
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09:22 ogra Keybuk, i do
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09:22 raphink ogra: i'm totally aware of this responsability
09:22 raphink :)
09:22 Keybuk how's his work with MOTU been?
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : The TB meeting is NOT MEANT to repeat
suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT - you will be muted | Logs
of the dapper meeting: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
09:22 ogra Keybuk, raphnik has reviewed way more packages than i did before applying for main
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09:22 raphink I've been involved in reviewing since before being a MOTU
09:22 Keybuk ok
09:22 ogra he does good packages and givers good suggestions on REVU
09:23 ogra *gives
09:23 Keybuk your application is very thorough, I must say; I've got no questions for you :)
09:23 dholbach yes, he did awesome work, was proactive, helped people out.
09:23 Keybuk mjg59_: any questions?
09:23 mjg59_ No, I think I'm happy
09:23 Keybuk ok, let's vote then
09:23 Keybuk +1 from me
09:23 mjg59_ Having more work on KDE in main would be good, it's certainly lagging behind in
integration
09:23 mjg59_ +1
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09:23 ogra welcome raphink :)
09:23 raphink :D :D
09:23 raphink tanks guys :)
09:23 raphink thanks
09:24 pitti welcome raphink
09:24 Keybuk I'm assuming Joel Bryan is not here?
09:24 Seveas congratz raphink
09:24 RAPIST so are they going to delay the release?
09:24 dholbach rocknroll, congratulations raphink
09:24 sivang whee!
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=== sivang high fives raphink
09:24 dholbach RAPIST: wrong meeting
09:24 Surak congrats raphink
09:24 david`bgk congrats raphink
09:24 raphink thanks Seveas,pitti ogra sivant Surak:)
09:24 ogra :)
09:24 freeflying-ibook congrats raphink
09:24 mjg59_ Ok.
09:24 raphink thanks freeflying-ibook && good luck :)
09:25 mjg59_ Do we have Joel Bryan?
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09:25 ogra desnt look like
09:25 dholbach mjg59_: I'll mail him.
09:25 mjg59_ Ok.
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09:25 mjg59_ MOTU?
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09:25 crimsun it doesn't look like he is
09:25 mjg59_ Who's new since last time?
09:25 ogra daf ?
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09:25 mjg59_ daf appears to be missing...
09:25 lotusleaf hi :)
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09:26 minghua I am new, I added myself for approval just yesterday :-)
09:26 sladen he was around an hour ago
=== minghua is Ming Hua
09:26 Kamion mjg59_: you are ideally placed to hunt him down, surely
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09:26 mjg59_ Kamion: He's sprinting
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09:26 sivang launchpad sprint
09:26 sivang I suppose
09:27 Keybuk minghua: ok, tell us why you'd like to join the MOTU :)
09:27 DapperxDrake so are they going to delay the dapper release or what?
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09:27 jjesse some people just don't learn :)
09:27 Seveas DapperDrake, see /topic - wrong time
09:27 minghua okay, I have been working with other MOTUs for a few months, and I've been doing
merges, transitions, bugfixes
09:28 minghua my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua, launchpad
https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
09:28 Kamion DapperxDrake: barging into meetings and asks off-topic questions is rude. You
wouldn't do it in real life, would you?
09:28 Keybuk can you give some examples of the areas you've been working on, and what you'd like
to work on next?
09:28 Kamion s/asks/asking/
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09:28 ogra dsaa, edmota, jdong, JohnnyMast, minghua, freeflying and jjmmma are the candidates
i think
09:28 ogra please speak up if you are here
09:28 Seveas ogra, JohnnyMast - lol....
09:28 minghua I am applying MOTU so that I can upload my fixes directly, mostly for scim related
packages
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09:29 ogra minghua, you are a DD, right ?
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09:29 minghua (but scim is entering main, so I am not so sure), but I still do other bugfixes
09:29 pitti minghua: NB that they are in main now, so even as MOTU you can't do that (but it's
the path to main upload privs, right)
09:29 minghua ogra: no, but I am debian (co-)maintainer of quite a few scim packages
09:30 dholbach and I'd be happy to sponsor minghua's uploads, as he always did good work.
09:30 Keybuk ogra, dholbach: do you have anything to add to minghua's application?
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09:30 minghua I do plan to apply for DD if that's relevant
09:30 ogra Keybuk, only a ++
09:30 crimsun I've uploaded a dozen or so of minghua's scim & fonts fixes
09:30 Amaranth minghua is the one that got us rolling on making scim work right
09:30 minghua pitti: yes I am aware of that, but one step at a time, I suppose :-)
09:30 ogra he pushed scim forward when there was no team around CJK yet
09:30 dholbach he's considerate, helped out, motivated and was an asset for MOTU wannabes, when
they had questions
09:30 ogra mostly on his own
09:30 mjg59_ I'm all for anyone who can improve our localisation support
09:31 Surak dholbach, ogra: ++
09:31 pitti I'd welcome minhua
09:31 Keybuk mjg59_: any questions for minghua ?
09:31 minghua and I do plan to post my patches before upload, so other people can comment
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09:31 minghua I think that is very important for MOTU to work together
09:31 mjg59_ minghua: Is your long term aim to apply for main privileges?
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09:32 minghua I am currently subscribed in launchpad for all scim packages I maintain in Debian,
and comments on almost every bug received
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09:32 minghua mjg59_: now scim is in main, so yes I do plan to apply for main priviledges
09:33 mjg59_ minghua: Ok, that's good to know
09:33 minghua I want to take care of scim packages (and in general other CJK l10n related
packages, such as fonts) in ubuntu
09:33 atie_ BIG support from me for Ming.
09:33 ogra atie_, not only from you ;)
09:33 mjg59_ minghua: At some point it would be good to document font issues, so it's easier for
people to work this stuff out
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09:33 mjg59_ But that's not a prerequisite :)
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09:34 Keybuk +1 from me
09:34 minghua mjg59_: I think you are aware that bubulle is trying to form an font team in
debian, and I defintely will participate in that
09:34 minghua (and communicate/collaborates with MOTUs)
09:34 minghua for the font issues
09:34 Chousuke Is the second meeting over already? what is this conversation about?
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09:35 mjg59_ minghua: Excellent
09:35 dholbach Chousuke: read the topic
09:35 mjg59_ +1 from me
09:35 minghua Chousuke: agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda, and please
read topic before asking
09:35 ogra Chousuke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
09:35 Keybuk ok, welcome aboard minghua
09:35 dholbach welcome minghua
09:35 ogra welcome minghua !!
09:35 minghua thanks mjg59_ and Keybuk
09:35 ogra :)
09:35 dholbach I'm happy to see you in the team!
09:35 ogra yeah
09:35 ogra me as well
09:35 pitti great to see you on board, minghua
09:36 Keybuk are any other candidates here today?
=== freeflying-ibook is freeflying
09:36 mjg59_ freeflying-ibook: Around?
09:36 mjg59_ Excellent
09:36 minghua and thanks everyone who showed up for support :-)
09:36 mjg59_ Want to introduce yourself?
09:36 Seveas (dholbach and others - I'm being the bad police guy and insta-mute - I also notify
in PM so no need to msg the channel more
09:36 Seveas )
I come from China ,my name is Hou ZhengPeng have worked with kubuntu-team for
09:36 freeflying-ibook months , and my major work is on Input Method and make ubuntu can support chinese
better . And my goal is make ubuntu more friendly to our chinese people , and
spread it in china So I hope I can be a motu , and do more and more for my goal
09:36 Surak minghua: congrats
09:36 atie_ congrats! minghua
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09:36 freeflying-ibook congrats minghua
09:37 ogra i guess Riddell worked with you on packaging ?
09:37 sladen freeflying-ibook: have you talked to minghua or any of the other people working in
a similar area?
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09:37 Riddell I support freeflying-ibook, he's been a great help getting cjk support into
kubuntu, and has worked on a number of packages
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09:37 minghua sladen (and others): freeflying-ibook has been mainly working on the KDE half of
the scim related stuff
09:37 minghua which I am not familar with
09:37 freeflying-ibook sladen: ya, i've talked with minghua about scim and also other people ,such as
atie_
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09:38 Riddell his packages need changed often but he's quick to make fixes and learns fast
09:38 Riddell s/need/needed/
09:38 raphink I was not too happy with freeflying-ibook lately
09:38 ogra Riddell, are you confident he's ready for working alone on universe packages yet
09:38 raphink but I asked him to review a bit to learn more
09:38 raphink and he's been improving quite fast
09:38 raphink in the last week
09:38 raphink and asking good questions
09:39 Riddell ogra: yes, so long as he gets his changelogs proofread for english :)
09:39 ogra heh
09:39 ogra nah, we need to learn chinese ;)
09:40 Riddell that's the alternative
=== Keybuk has always wanted to learn chinese
09:40 Keybuk (random)
09:40 minghua freeflying-ibook: I want to know your opinion on using launchpad
09:40 atie_ he's big help for skim, I support him. :)
09:40 Surak ogra: china is becoming so important than in some years the rest of the world will
become irrelevant (I'm studying chinese anyway :-) )
09:40 freeflying-ibook minghua: I'd like to use
09:40 ogra heh
09:40 minghua freeflying-ibook: I see that most of your patches aren't posted to launchpad and no
malone bugs either
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09:41 minghua freeflying-ibook: I assume for kde packages you keep good contact with Riddell
09:41 Riddell he does
09:41 freeflying-ibook minghua: if there has bugs, i will attach my patch on
09:41 minghua freeflying-ibook: but for scim package I am subscribed to the packages I am
interested in, and you don't send patches there
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09:42 Keybuk ogra, dholbach: have you worked with freeflying-ibook much yet?
09:42 ogra nope
09:42 ogra i dont know KDE :)
09:42 freeflying-ibook minghua: for scim , there is seldom patch for it
09:42 minghua freeflying-ibook: for
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scim-pinyin/+bug/34413 you did not
09:43 dholbach Keybuk: I didn't work much with him, sorry.
09:43 Amaranth minghua: i'm not sure this is the right time
09:43 minghua freeflying-ibook: I got your debdiff because I asked you (as Debian upstream
maintainer)
09:43 freeflying-ibook minghua: before this uploaded , I mail you debdiff
09:43 ogra Keybuk, i tend to belive Riddell and since he'll break his packages i'm fine with
reputation from him :)
09:43 minghua freeflying-ibook: but I would appreciate you do these in a more open way, so more
people can get involved
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my instinct suggests that freeflying is making good contributions to Ubuntu, and
09:43 Keybuk should continue to do so; but isn't yet well acquainted enough with our procedures
and systems to formally join the team
09:44 freeflying-ibook minghua: about scim and relate stuff , idon't think now is good time to talk about
09:44 Keybuk would anybody like to disagree with that and raise support?
09:44 atie_ minghua, I'd like to see yours and freeflying's efforts coordinated since you need
help for KDE part.
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09:44 minghua Amaranth: I am hoping he can use launchpad more, because I don't want to read
dapper-changes to see a surprise
09:44 ogra Riddell, ?
09:44 minghua atie_: yes, I am trying to figure a way to cooperate with him
09:45 Riddell as I've said, I'm happy with his work for MOTU
09:45 Keybuk mjg59: any questions/comments?
09:45 minghua I am not unhappy with freeflying-ibook's changes to universe
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09:45 mjg59_ I'd agree with Scott for now. I don't want to see Kubuntu be a poor second cousin
in terms of localisation support, but I have a couple of qualms right now
09:45 minghua but as people said, there need to be cooperations, and I currently have problems
with cooperating with freeflying-ibook
09:46 minghua I don't necessarily need to care, though
09:46 Keybuk freeflying-ibook: thanks for your contributions so far, please do continue them
:) however we're going to defer you for now.
09:46 sladen minghua: could you work on sponsoring more of freeflying-ibook's uploads on the
packages that you look after (if they're in Universe)
09:46 Keybuk freeflying-ibook: please work more closely with other scim maintainers, and the
other MOTU; also try to use launchpad more, especially Malone
09:46 freeflying-ibook minghua: actually it's you say that you don't care the main inclusion of scim , so
how can i cooperate with y
09:47 Keybuk not in the least because we use Launchpad to see your work
09:47 Keybuk and at the moment your launchpad page shows very little activity
09:47 minghua sladen: pitti said most scim packages are in main now
09:47 sladen flikkeh: you have some excellent unique skills---that few other people here know
about, please stick around and keep at it
09:47 minghua sladen: but if he posted other CJK related patches, I would be more than happy to
review and upload
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09:48 sladen minghua: I'm sure he will be :)
09:48 Keybuk ok, let's move on
09:48 Keybuk jdong doesn't appear to be here
09:48 Keybuk and none of the other candidates are members yet
09:48 Keybuk sladen: I'm not entirely sure what your first agenda item is actually *about*
09:48 Keybuk could you summaries what you'd like us to discuss and decide here?
09:49 sladen Keybuk: first or third?
09:49 Keybuk first
09:49 Keybuk "granted main upload..."
09:49 ogra Keybuk, jdong didnt do *any* packaging with MOTU yet
09:49 minghua freeflying-ibook: also feel free to mail me if you have any patches for packages in
universe that you feel not suitable for malone
09:50 ogra Keybuk, being added to the LP team where he was missed out :)
09:50 freeflying-ibook minghua: thx for your advice
09:50 sladen Keybuk: it's irrelevant now, the ticky box in LP has been clicked
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09:50 mjg59_ sladen: I think that we should avoid discussing the new features stuff until the
decision has been made on scheduling
09:50 Keybuk sladen: ok :)
09:50 mjg59_ Would you mind if we left that until later?
09:51 Keybuk madwifi-ng is not being held because of lack of time
09:51 sladen mjg59_: it would make sense. It's dependent on that
09:51 Keybuk it's being held because it flat-out doesn't work on amd64 :-)
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09:51 mjg59_ Keybuk: The plan is to add it to l-r-m for x86 in any case, but anyway
09:51 mjg59_ (Not replacing madwifi)
09:51 Keybuk aye
09:52 Keybuk ok, let's look at that last item
09:52 Keybuk and then go back to Mark's
09:52 Seveas (from the nm-mailinglist: madwifi-ng cvs is quite crackful lately)
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09:52 Keybuk sladen: what's the strange behaviour you have noticed?
09:53 Keybuk the most usual thing I notice is either an "0ubuntu1" upload to Ubuntu and a "1" to
Debian that are identical
09:53 sladen Keybuk: *blink*?
09:53 Keybuk or a "1" to both with different target distros
sladen: "PaulSladen: Syncs from external repositories. I've noticed a few people
09:53 Keybuk doing fake uploads of duplicate packages into order to speed up the development
cycle."
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09:53 ogra sladen, that was advised
09:53 sladen Keybuk: syching back from Debian is taking a while
09:53 dholbach I suppose he meant 1build1 uploads
09:53 ogra because the LP sync mechanism isnt in place yet
09:54 slomo yes, and it doesn't add a new delta as -Xbuild1 would be automatically synced and
overwritten by the autosyncer with -(X+1)
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09:54 Keybuk sladen: syncing back from Debian doesn't happen at all right now, unless you have a
UVF exception, no?
09:54 ogra XbuildX versions are overridden by autosyncs later
09:54 mjg59_ Keybuk: It doesn't happen at all right now
09:54 sladen Keybuk: see note at the end
09:54 mjg59_ Even for UVF exceptions
09:54 Keybuk I must admit, I'm completely baffled here
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09:54 ogra Keybuk, there was a backlog on elmos side
09:54 Keybuk sladen: could you give us a 1-line summary of the decision required?
09:55 sladen mjg59_: if packages are uploaded to Debian (to save having deltas against upstream)
09:55 sladen s/mjg59_//
09:55 ogra to get that done without LP it was asked that MOTU does XbuildX uploads
09:55 sladen Keybuk: "what do do about syncs from Debian not happening"
09:55 mjg59_ sladen: I think the actual problem here is "syncs are not happening", not "it needs
to be easier to do syncs"
09:55 mjg59_ And the technical board is not in a position to fix the former of these
09:55 Keybuk "easier to do syncs" is a firm Launchpad spec
09:55 sladen Keybuk: when there is a preference to send packages to Upstream---we can't do this
if the system is broken
09:56 ogra Keybuk, "do syncs at all"
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09:56 slomo mjg59_: but the TB is fine with doing "fakesyncs", i.e. -Xbuild1 uploads?
09:56 mjg59_ sladen: And the problem is "the system is broken". That's not what we can solve.
09:56 ogra sladen, where is the system broken ?
09:56 Keybuk syncs are currently somewhere between elmo, launchpad and katie as I understand it
09:56 mjg59_ slomo: I would really prefer not to, but in the absence of anything else...
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09:56 Keybuk none of which have TB-oversight
09:56 ogra Keybuk, syncs are manually done by MOTU currently ...
09:57 ogra and not for TB, right
09:57 Keybuk sladen: where is the fixed sync system you are proposing we use?
09:57 ogra it was an informal advise to use XbuildX for now
09:57 mjg59_ ogra: No, something that approximates syncs are manually done by MOTU currently
09:57 sladen mjg59_: so what I'm after is guidance about how to cope with the system being
broken. What's the offical workaround?
09:57 dholbach I consider this discussion to be somewhat artificial, all we seem to be doing is
determining, that things could work better.
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09:57 Keybuk sladen: the official workaround is to do an upload of "XbuildX"
09:58 mjg59_ Anyway. I think it's clear we can't really do anything here
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09:58 Keybuk indeed. It's known to be broken. It's on the list of things to fix.
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09:58 Keybuk And there is a workaround which is being used.
09:58 mjg59_ So. Hypothetical dapper schedule. Does someone have a link to the current schedule
for reference?
09:58 minghua I think sladen want to ask TB to confirm that "-Xbuild1" fakesync uploads are okay
for the current situation
09:59 Keybuk http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
09:59 Keybuk ^ is the GNOME 2.15 proposed schedule
09:59 minghua because some MOTUs are still not sure if it's correct to do so
09:59 Seveas mjg59, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
09:59 Keybuk minghua: I don't think there's a TB decision there though; unless there is an
argument *not* to do it that way
10:00 minghua Keybuk: good, I have no questions then :-)
10:00 Keybuk hypothetical dapper+6 weeks release would put it on June 1st
10:00 sladen Keybuk: groovy, ta
10:00 mjg59_ Right.
10:00 mjg59_ Currently we have passed every freeze except beta, string and documentation
10:00 mjg59_ Code should only be changing to fix bugs
10:00 Nafallo mjg59: except kernel aswell.
10:00 ltibor65_ Who is TB-member here?
10:01 mjg59_ Unless there are specific feature goals, I don't think anyone is going to argue
that we should lift the current freezes
10:01 ogra hmm, polish might also mean UI changes
10:01 Keybuk given the emphasis on localisation, it actually makes some sense to me to thaw the
UI freeze just in case changes need to be made
10:01 mjg59_ Keybuk: Ok. UI freeze sounds like a good exception.
10:01 Surak for the translators a reminder: string freeze is scheduled for the day after
tomorrow
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10:01 mjg59_ As another reminder: No decision has been made on the delay as yet. Do not assume
that it will happen.
10:01 ogra string freeze might also move i think
10:02 mjg59_ The fact that we are discussing this now does not mean that it will happen.
10:02 ogra as well as doc freeze
10:02 mjg59_ This discussion is purely to determine what schedule we will follow if the delay
/does/ take place
10:02 Keybuk I'd push the entire March block into April
10:02 pitti given that rosetta doesn't yet import everything in dapper, string freeze can
certainly slip for one or two weeks
10:02 ogra yeah
10:02 Keybuk so leave us in FeatureFreeze
10:02 mjg59_ Keybuk: Keeping the weeks the same? That sounds good.
10:02 Keybuk with a BetaRelease on April 20th
10:02 sivang maybe we'd better wait for when a schedule has been decided? or , at least brought
for review?
10:02 mjg59_ sivang: We decide the schedule.
10:02 sivang mjg59_: now? :)
10:02 mjg59_ Yes.
10:03 ogra theats what we do
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10:03 pitti sivang: it's IF delay is done THEN this new plan becomes active, not more
10:03 mjg59_ Or rather, we are currently deciding what the schedule will be if the delay takes
place.
10:03 sivang pitti: thakns for the clarification.
10:03 mjg59_ Keybuk: That's effectively a 4 week delay. Where do the other two weeks go?
10:03 ogra bugfixing ?
10:03 pitti pure bug fixing
10:03 ogra testing
10:03 Keybuk an extra two weeks of Beta test reports
10:04 sivang hardware support bug fixing
10:04 mjg59_ Keybuk: Ok. With no string changes or UI changes?
10:04 pitti preferably not
10:04 sladen two weeks -> insert an extra week between each of the last two freezes?
10:04 Keybuk hmm, that's an interesting point
10:04 atie_ mjg59, do you have a list of goals for localization and how many days needed for
them?
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10:04 Keybuk the String and DocString freezes could be placed after Beta
10:04 mjg59_ atie_: I don't, no - not really my field, I'm afraid
10:05 sivang sladen: you mean between FF and the UI ones?
10:05 Surak what are the tradeoffs of postponing the string freeze?
10:05 ogra atie_, #ubuntu-i10n (sprint people) might know (but they might be offline by now)
10:05 mjg59_ Keybuk: I think we should aim to have the same amount of time between string freeze
and final release as we do now
10:05 atie_ mjg59, localization maybe factor for schedule, isn't it?
10:05 Keybuk mjg59_: I agree with you
10:05 Keybuk what about UI-freeze?
10:06 mjg59_ Keybuk: That is, string freeze should be 6 weeks before final release
10:06 sladen I was thinking between RC and FR. But actually I think that time should be used
earlier so that it can actually be /used/ and not spent sitting around waiting
10:06 Keybuk should that be T-5 weeks or B-1 week?
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10:06 mjg59_ Keybuk: I think it should be independent of the beta. The length of time is more
needed for translation time, right?
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10:06 mjg59_ Shame Jono isn't here. It would be nice to have his opinion on that.
10:07 ogra but mako was earlier
10:07 Keybuk right
10:07 Burgwork is this something I can answer?
10:07 ogra Burgwork, do you work with them on the book ?
10:07 Burgwork yes
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10:07 ogra so give an opinion :)
10:07 mjg59_ Ok. I propose string freeze to be April 27th.
10:08 mjg59_ Docstringfreeze should be the week after that.
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10:08 ogra ++
10:08 mjg59_ Translation deadline two weeks after that.
10:08 mjg59_ And then release two weeks after that.
10:08 Keybuk right
10:08 mjg59_ That is, keep those freezes the same distance away from the release as they are
currently scheduled to be.
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10:09 Keybuk BetaRelease on April 20th?
10:09 mjg59_ Yes, I think making a beta release on April 20th would be good.
10:09 Seveas it should not be called beta
10:09 Keybuk April6th
10:09 Keybuk 13thBeta Freeze
10:09 Keybuk 20thBetaRelease, UserInterfaceFreeze
10:09 Keybuk 27thStringFreeze
10:09 Keybuk May4thDocumentationStringFreeze
10:09 Keybuk 11th
10:09 robotgeek translation of documentation can only begin after doc string freeze, how does it
exactly improve document translation?
10:09 Keybuk 18thNonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, KernelFreeze
10:09 Keybuk 25thReleaseCandidate, LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
10:09 Keybuk June1stFinalRelease
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10:09 Seveas it should be a PR boost
10:09 mjg59_ Seveas: Naming is not our field.
10:09 ogra Seveas, jdub will rename it properly
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10:09 Seveas ogra, I'm scared....
10:09 Burgwork the docteam wants to be mostly frozen for the beta, due to having great testing for
that release
10:09 ogra :)
10:09 Keybuk that gives us an extra 5 (not 4) weeks until Beta
10:10 Keybuk and an extra week between Beta and Release
10:10 mjg59_ Ok. How many people do we have here from the doc team?
10:10 Burgwork so I would keep the docteam string freeze the same as the beta
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10:11 mjg59_ robotgeek: How much extra time do you (and the translaters) realistically need?
10:11 Nafallo should we really move the kernel freeze?
10:11 atie_ what if beta on April 20th not achieved for localization goals, do we postpone them
to dapper+1?
10:11 Keybuk Nafallo: it makes sense for the kernel to be frozen relative to the release
10:11 Keybuk not relative to now
10:11 robotgeek mjg59_: i am quite new to the doc team, i am not sure about translation times. i
was hoping someone else could enlighten me on the issue
10:12 mjg59_ The kernel freeze is a hard freeze.
10:12 Burgwork mjg59, we are well on track to meeting the current string freeze
10:12 mjg59_ Keeping it slushy for bug-fixing is sensible.
10:12 Burgwork even without it being bumped back
10:12 mjg59_ Burgwork: Right. So currently we're proposing giving you an extra 4-5 weeks.
10:12 Keybuk Burgwork: that assumes no new input from the localisation work
10:12 robotgeek the only problem is with sutff changing in the UI
10:12 mjg59_ What could you do with that time?
10:12 Burgwork cleanup more docs
10:13 robotgeek mjg59_: probably not much. cleanup
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10:13 Keybuk what about documentation for espresso?
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10:13 Burgwork not yet in place
10:13 Burgwork that is the last major piece we need
10:13 Keybuk is that on track for the current string freeze?
10:13 ogra mjg59_, renaming 6.04 to 6-06 in the docs :)
10:14 mjg59_ I think it would be helpful to have a proposal from the doc team on this
10:14 Surak what about internationalization for espresso?
10:14 Keybuk \o/ finally, my version numbering scheme (that I suggested back at the original
"version number decision" meeting) is being adopted
10:14 Keybuk (ahem)
10:14 Burgwork mjg59, you want specific information about where we should move the freeze to?
10:15 mjg59_ Burgwork: I think this is something that should be decided with more feedback from
the doc team
10:15 Keybuk Burgwork: I'm trying to understand what the DocStringFreeze is nailed to
10:15 Keybuk is it "four weeks before Release, because that's how long we need to do it"
10:15 mjg59_ If an earlier freeze helps translation, then that's good.
10:15 Burgwork Keybuk, currently the beta freeze, to allow greater testing
10:15 Keybuk or is it "never change Docs after Beta has released" ?
10:15 Keybuk testing of what?
10:15 jjesse and to allow translation
10:15 mjg59_ If a later freeze helps the quality of the docs, then that's also good.
10:15 robotgeek Keybuk: i think it has more to do with the UI freeze, cause we have to change stuff
if you do
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10:16 Burgwork testing to see if the docs are crack and looking for typos, etc.
10:16 jjesse i'm not the best person, but i thought doc freeze occured after UI freeze to help
with translations and make sure there aren't major changes to the docs
10:16 sladen Keybuk: that would leave us still in '''UserInterfaceFreeze''' ?
10:16 Burgwork plus allow translation
10:16 jjesse docs don't get uploaded into rosseta until doc freeze (correect me if i'm wrong
burgwork)
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10:17 Burgwork afaik, that is correct, but I am not the best person to ask about that
10:17 Keybuk Burgwork: DocStringFreeze to me suggests "no more documentation changes"
10:17 ogra Keybuk, oh, yes, your list above had no new date for UI freeze
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10:17 Keybuk ogra: does, april 20th
10:17 ogra oh
10:17 ogra sorry, i'm blind
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10:18 ogra Keybuk, no text changes, but screenshots etc
10:18 Burgwork we like to keep screenshots to the docteam freeze as well
10:18 Keybuk right, given the changes in localisation and stuff, it makes a bit of sense to me
to actually freeze the UI/String/Docs *after* we've already released beta
10:18 robotgeek jjesse: that is correct, no translation before DocStringFreeze
10:19 Keybuk but still with a whole extra week to do the work before release
10:19 Burgwork let me raise the idea on the doc mailing list
10:19 mjg59_ Keybuk: I think we should possibly get more feedback from the translators before
making a firm decision on this point
10:19 Burgwork as jerome and matthew are the best people to ask about this
10:19 robotgeek mjg59_: +1
10:20 mjg59_ Since there is a firm desire for higher quality docs, and that's going to include
the translations
10:20 ogra i think we do a rough proposal only ...
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10:20 ogra anyway ...
10:20 Keybuk right, I agree with ogra; let's put it forward as a proposal for the TB/CC
super-meeting
10:20 Keybuk and make sure the translators and docteam have weighed in
10:20 mjg59_ Ok. Let's go with that.
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10:21 sladen is it worth budging the Release an extra day to fall at the start of the weekend
for mirror loading et al
10:21 Keybuk there's a reason (that I've forgotten) that we do it on Thursday
10:22 ogra someones b-day ?
10:22 atie_ most GNOME 2.14 application translations can be uploaded to rosetta independently I
think.
10:22 ogra :)
10:23 Keybuk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule/Slewed
10:23 Keybuk (thanks sladen)
10:23 Keybuk so that's our proposal for a 6-week-delayed schedule
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10:23 mjg59_ Any violent objections?
10:24 sivang seems sane
10:24 ogra since its a proposal only ...
10:24 enyc The weeknumbers on that schedule dont make sense ;-)
10:24 PierPP y
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10:24 Keybuk enyc: "week numbers" ? the dates should all be a Thursday
10:25 sladen enyc: any better? 29->33
10:25 enyc sladen: much better ;-)
10:25 ogra heh
10:25 PierPP sweet
10:25 Keybuk ah, heh
10:25 mjg59_ Ok. Anything else to do?
10:25 Keybuk Any other business from the floor?
10:25 ogra doesnt look like
10:26 enyc That.. would mean that 6.04 _would_ be there.. as a beta release!
10:26 enyc and 6.05 would be the final
10:26 enyc hrrm
10:26 Keybuk 6-06 as final
10:26 enyc well you can't please everybody _whatever_ you do!
10:26 ogra nope, 6-06
10:26 enyc oh yes
10:26 enyc ;-)
10:26 Keybuk ok, in that case
10:26 Keybuk meeting ajourned
10:26 Keybuk thanks everybody
10:26 ogra yay
10:26 Keybuk the next formal meeting will be in two weeks time (28th)MeetingLogs/Technical_2006-03-14 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:35:44 by localhost)