Technical_2006-01-31
09:01 Keybuk ok,
09:01 Keybuk mjg59: ping
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09:01 Keybuk mdz has sent apologies, he's at the theatre tonight
09:01 Keybuk sabdfl is in asia, and I would be fired for making any
implications about thai ladyboys
09:01 Keybuk uh ^L^L^L
09:01 Keybuk :D
09:01 sivang Keybuk: hehe
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09:04 Keybuk hmm, no response from mjg59 ... will give him a few
minutes
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09:05 mjg59 Hi
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09:06 Keybuk aha
09:06 Keybuk right
=== sivang this TB meeting is starting slow :)
09:06 Keybuk mjg59: got a whiskey ready?
09:06 mjg59 Not as yet
09:06 mjg59 I'll find one if it becomes necessary
09:06 Keybuk I have a beer, which I'm already part the way through
09:06 Keybuk so this should be a nice ride
09:06 Keybuk so let's get this show on the rode
09:06 Keybuk Core Developer Candidates
09:06 Keybuk jjmmma ?
09:07 Keybuk dsaa ?
09:07 Keybuk Kinnison ?
09:07 Keybuk debankur ?
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09:07 Keybuk none of those have applied for membership or motu, so
will be rejected
Kinnison: ah, just in time... you need to apply for
09:08 Keybuk ubuntu-members and ubuntu-dev before you can apply for
ubuntu-core-dev
09:08 Kinnison Right
09:08 Stormx2 Hey! A meeting :P I'll just watch.
09:08 Kinnison so I need to do the wiki etc?
09:08 Keybuk right
09:08 Kinnison Okay, I'll do that next week
=== Kinnison goes back to soyuz
09:08 Keybuk ubuntu-members are considered by the Community Council
09:08 fabbione *cough*
09:08 Keybuk so you'll need to go before them
09:08 Kinnison thanks for the official info
09:09 Kinnison Keybuk: aye, thanks
09:09 lucas (next CC meeting is next tuesday)
=== Kinnison nods lucas
Kinnison: I'll leave your application in the list
09:09 Keybuk though, rather than reject, seeing as you actually
showed up :)
09:09 Kamion work with MOTU is usually considered favourably by the
CC, by the way
09:09 Kamion although we know you anyway, which obviously helps :)
09:09 fabbione Kinnison FOR PRESIDENT!
=== sivang hugs Kinnison
09:09 Keybuk ok, Ubuntu Developers
09:10 mjg59 Daniel has plenty of code already in the archive, and
he's worked well with existing members, so...
09:10 Keybuk lmanul ?
09:10 Kinnison Keybuk: sorry, I was working on some soyuz code and
lost track of time
09:10 Kamion mjg59: yeah
09:10 Keybuk freeflying ?
09:10 sivang mjg59: lol
09:10 Keybuk batt ?
09:10 Keybuk anyone know Ivailo Ivanov ?
09:10 dholbach lmanul is in #ubuntu-desktop - I called him.
09:10 mjg59 dholbach: Thanks
09:11 Keybuk let's give him a few seconds
09:12 Riddell freeflying not on IRC, didn't discuss applying for
membership with me as I remember
09:12 sivang ah, tb is approving membership now as well?
09:12 Keybuk no, cc does that
09:12 sivang ah , ok
09:13 Keybuk ok, let's carry on
09:13 Riddell memership to ubuntu-dev team I ment
09:13 Keybuk if lmanul comes in, we can deal with him then
09:13 Keybuk Riddell: you're up
09:13 mjg59 "deal with"
09:13 mjg59 Sounds ominous
09:14 Riddell Keybuk: this wasat the MOTU meeting and they referred
it here
09:14 Keybuk ok, please take the floor; it's your agenda item
09:14 Riddell if a program is "GPL two or later" do we put a link in
debian/copyright to the GPL symlink or the GPL-2 files
09:14 mjg59 Ha
09:14 Keybuk my immediate hunch is that Debian will deal with this
far better than we will
09:14 Keybuk and that they're more paranoid about such things
09:14 Riddell policy didn't have anything much to say
09:14 mjg59 Yeah, this is something that's going to have to be
dealt with in Debian
09:15 mjg59 It's not a problem we've really had before
09:15 Keybuk I don't think we should do anything different to them
09:15 Riddell I think MOTU just want something consitent
09:15 Keybuk we can certainly talk with them, but I think whatever
they decide goes
09:15 mjg59 Since GPL3 doesn't exist yet, leaving it pointing at
GPL2 now isn't an issue
09:15 Keybuk Riddell: do you want to lead the dialogue with
appropriate Debian people?
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09:15 Riddell Keybuk: I'd have no idea who they were
09:15 Keybuk debian-policy might be a start
09:15 mjg59 lmanul: Hi - we've just jumped ahead to the next agenda
item, we'll come back to you in a minute
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09:16 Riddell could do
Sure. I'd recommend discussing it in Debian for now,
09:16 mjg59 and then us (and all the other derivatives) following
suit
09:16 Keybuk also debian-legal, as there may be implications, etc.
09:16 Keybuk mjg59: I agree
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09:16 Riddell ok, I'll do that
09:16 mjg59 Riddell: Ok, cool
09:17 Keybuk cool, lmanul welcome! you've applied to join the MOTU?
09:17 lmanul Huh... I'm a bit surprised actually
09:17 Keybuk oh?
09:17 dholbach :-)
09:17 tseng i think i twas a dholbach recruiting scheme
09:17 lmanul dholbach: told me there was something going on here so
I came in
09:17 Keybuk you clicked the "join the ubuntu-dev team" button in
Launchpad
09:17 dholbach tseng: hahaha, lmanul just became member for his
rocking work on the dekstop theme
09:18 dholbach s/theme/team
09:18 lmanul Woops
09:18 lmanul Did I made one extra click ? :-p
09:18 Keybuk lmanul: would you like to be considered for joining the
team? :)
09:18 lmanul make
09:18 lmanul The MOTU Team ?
09:18 Keybuk indeed
09:18 lmanul Well, sure
09:18 tseng Keybuk: i havent seen any packaging experience from him
to justify MOTUness
09:18 lmanul But, huh...
09:18 sivang wh wouldn't ? :)
09:18 Keybuk have you worked much with them yet?
09:18 lmanul I've never packaged anything :)
09:19 Keybuk certainly your UI work is familar to us all
09:19 lmanul Thanks :)
ok, I suggest your next step if you wish to take it is
09:19 Keybuk to work with the MOTU on packaging work, using their
REVU system and sponsored uploads
09:19 lmanul I'm not sure I have what it takes to become a MOTU...
Do I ?
09:19 lucas lmanul: are you actually interested in joining MOTU ?
09:19 lucas (you are not forced too ;)
09:19 lmanul lucas Sure, I am interested
09:19 lmanul But I don't remember adding myself to any wiki list
09:20 Keybuk ok, then I suggest chatting to dholbach and ogra, etc.
09:20 lmanul Not sure I'm ready for that :)
09:20 lucas lmanul: it was on launchpad
09:20 lmanul All right
lmanul: we use Launchpad to track applications; you
09:20 Keybuk must have clicked the "Join this team" button on the
ubuntu-dev page
09:20 Keybuk that proposed you and added you to the agenda for this
meeting :)
09:20 ogra lmanul, would be cool if you could direcly work on the
packages with your patches ;)
09:20 lmanul Keybuk: That's possible, I didn't know ubuntu-dev =
MOTU :)
09:20 lmanul ogra: Sure !
09:20 ogra but i think a bit training is required ;)
09:20 Keybuk ok, we'll leave him in your delicate hands then
09:21 lmanul Ok, so I guess I'll get some packaging experience and
come back after that ? :)
09:21 ogra :)
09:21 ogra yup
09:21 lmanul Sorry for disturbing the meeting :p
09:21 Keybuk no worries
09:21 mjg59 lmanul: No problem :)
09:21 Keybuk Riddell: you again by the looks of it
09:21 Riddell yo
09:21 Keybuk xine vs. gstreamer?
09:21 Riddell this was whether kubuntu dapper should ship with xine
or gstreamer
09:21 Riddell breezy used gstreamer 0.8
09:21 Keybuk what do you think?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that Ubuntu should
09:22 mjg59 ship with gstreamer as the default video framework this
time around...
09:22 Riddell but 0.8 is obsolete and amarok/kaffeine are not yet
ported to gstreamer 0.10
09:22 ogra dapper uses gstreamer0.10
09:22 ogra so we'd have to support both for 3 years
09:22 Riddell shipping kubuntu dapper with an obsolete gstreamer for
3 years support isn't good
09:22 ogra yup
09:22 dholbach It'd be good if we had Test data on either of them.
09:23 ogra is xine a sane option to use instead ?
my experience with xine is that it's not really any
09:23 Keybuk better than gstreamer until you add the non-free stuff
and windows dlls
other option is me porting kaffeine to gstreamer 0.10
09:23 Riddell (possible but will probably take lots of time) and
hoping amarok gets ported in time
09:23 mjg59 Keybuk: gstreamer0.10 can't currently have those added
09:23 tseng Keybuk: compared to gst 0.10, I agree
09:23 Riddell and we have I believe a shippable xine in main now
09:23 mjg59 There isn't even an asf demuxer
09:23 ogra Riddell, sounds not like it could be done before
feature freeze
09:23 Keybuk Riddell: xine is in universe right now
09:24 Riddell ogra: quite probably not
09:24 mjg59 Keybuk: libxine1 is in main
09:24 Keybuk so there are security and support implications
09:24 Keybuk ah libxine-main1
09:24 mjg59 Yeah
09:24 Keybuk sorry, I missed that
09:24 Riddell libxine-dev is main
09:24 Riddell and hoary has xine
09:24 Keybuk my initial gut would be to try and keep one sound/video
framework through all of the derivatives if possible
Riddell: Personally, I think you should make the
decision based on functionality and achievability.
09:25 mjg59 Right now we're looking at supporting libxine and
gstreamer for dapper, and nobody seems to be pushing
for xine to be dropped.
09:25 Riddell Keybuk: yep, that's why I changed to gstreamer for
breezy
09:25 mjg59 Riddell: gst0.8 is obviously not an option
09:25 Riddell it seems like a step backwards to go back to xine
09:25 Riddell but practicalities get in the way
09:25 mjg59 Keeping gst0.8 would mean supporting 3 media frameworks
09:26 mjg59 And 0.8 is pretty much dead upstream
09:26 Amaranth mjg59: completely dead
09:26 mjg59 Amaranth: Not entirely. Ronald has discussed providing
some basic level of support.
09:26 Amaranth mjg59: i thought he was just going to get one last
release out
if we chose xine, there's not much work to do. What
09:27 lucas about trying to use gst 0.10 for 2 weeks and decide
during the next TB meeting ? we could always switch
back to xine by then.
09:27 ogra lucas, feature freeze is near
09:27 Riddell lucas: can't use gstreamer 0.10 for two weeks, the
programs just are not ported
09:27 ogra lucas, Riddell already said it takes to long
09:27 sivang ogra: 23 feb right?
09:27 lucas I meant: try to work with upstream to get it ported in
time ;)
amarok may be out by the end of feb, kaffeine it seems
09:27 Riddell like I'd have to do myself, and i'm no expert in the
area
09:28 ogra sivang, i cant tell from the top of my head
09:28 ogra sivang, but around this date ...
09:28 mjg59 Riddell: Realistically, if gst0.10 isn't an option,
then go with xine.
09:28 ogra (release schedule will tell you ;) )
09:28 lucas 23rd
09:28 lucas https://launchpad.net/people/bg+
Most of the GNOME stuff already uses gstreamer
09:28 dholbach internally - and that's not only rhythmbox and totem,
it's gnome-media, gnome-applets, sound-juicer, ...
09:28 lucas rah
09:28 lucas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
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09:28 tseng to be clear are we talking about gst 0.10 for gnome and
xine for kde?
09:28 mjg59 Riddell: There's no point in shipping a crippled
desktop for the sake of consistency
09:28 mjg59 tseng: Yes
09:28 tseng or xine everywhere
09:29 Keybuk tseng: just considering kde at this point
09:29 mjg59 The former. I don't think anyone's discussed migrating
gnome.
09:29 tseng mjg59: thanks.
09:29 ogra tseng, OMG
09:29 Riddell mjg59: I think that's what I'm hoping someone would
tell me
it's disappointing to go back to xine in various ways
09:29 Riddell but if that's what has to be done then it's the best
thing
09:30 mjg59 Riddell: The other options are all worse
I think this sort of thing is going to be an inevitable
09:30 mjg59 consequence of our release timing not being very in
line with KDE's
09:31 dholbach How much work would xine as "Plan B" be?
09:31 Riddell dholbach: what would plan A be then?
09:31 ogra heh
09:31 dholbach Porting to gst0.10?
09:31 mjg59 dholbach: If the porting hasn't started, it's entirely
unrealistic
09:31 ogra dholbach, i think its rather the other way around
09:31 mjg59 There's significant differences in the API
09:31 Amaranth dholbach: that'd be porting two large applications in
less than a month
=== dholbach didn't check the API.
09:32 Riddell it's quite a change
09:32 lucas is sbody familiar with the work to do ?
09:33 Riddell lucas: there's a document for how to do it, but it's
not trivial
09:33 mjg59 lucas: It is not realistic to do the ports in the time
available
09:33 mjg59 Not if we want adequate testing
09:33 lucas okay
09:33 Amaranth yeah, shipping a broken amarok would not be good
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09:33 Riddell so if xine isn't a problem to ship I think we'll go
with that, and look at gstreamer 0.10 for dapper + 1
09:33 lucas so there's no choice, really :-)
09:33 Amaranth not really, no
09:33 mjg59 Riddell: I think that's the only realistic option. Does
anyone disagree?
09:34 Riddell sorted, thanks all
09:34 Keybuk I agree
09:34 mjg59 Ok. Next item?
09:34 Keybuk next is lucas
09:34 lucas Repository of old source packages
09:34 lucas I summarized the issue on the Agenda
09:35 lucas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
ok, basically this is to solve the issue where MoM
09:35 Keybuk sometimes doesn't have the Debian base version to hand
when doing a merge ?
09:35 lucas yup
09:35 Keybuk it's probably worth stating at this point that it's not
an easy problem
09:36 lucas I'm not sure I understand where the problems are: it
doesn't seem that difficult to me
09:36 Keybuk you need to keep a copy of every source package since
the Debian base as well
09:36 Keybuk because you can't predict what the next Debian base
version will be
09:36 Amaranth i thought this is what the morgue was for
09:36 Keybuk and the simple fact is it's hard to get every source
package from Debian
09:36 ogra Amaranth, yes
09:36 Keybuk some of them are simply missing
09:36 ogra Amaranth, but the morgue ran out of space once ...
09:36 sistpoty Keybuk: is anything like this planned for LP?
09:37 Amaranth ogra: and now is completely dead, afaics
09:37 lucas Keybuk: how can source packages be missing from debian
?
09:37 Keybuk lucas: because the maintainer uploads -1
09:37 Keybuk then the next day uploads -2, -3, -4 and -5
09:37 Kamion ogra: different morgue
09:37 Keybuk only -5 will be published in the Debian FTP sites
09:37 Kamion it's the Debian morgue that matters here
09:37 ogra Kamion, ah
09:37 Keybuk -2, -3 and -4 will be missing
09:38 lucas ah, yes
09:38 Amaranth Keybuk: but we'd only end up using -1 or -5, right?
09:38 Keybuk Amaranth: that should be true, but it sometimes isn't
09:38 lucas but I see the system as : copy everything + expire what
we no longer need
09:38 Kamion Amaranth: not necessarily, especially if the Debian and
Ubuntu maintainers are the same
09:38 Kamion or if the Ubuntu maintainer pulls from incoming
09:38 Keybuk and the simple fact is we already do this
09:38 Amaranth hrm
09:38 Keybuk and actually do it in such a way that -2, -3 and -4
*are* available to us too
09:39 Keybuk and we still miss some sometimes
09:39 lucas having you investigated the reasons for this ?
09:39 lucas It seems that we miss a lot of them
09:39 Keybuk not fully
09:40 Keybuk it's not really something I've had time for
09:40 Keybuk we tend to fix mom at the start of each distro cycle
09:40 Keybuk and by the end it's not working well
09:40 Kamion perhaps time investigating why would be better spent
than time duplicating the existing system ...
09:40 Kamion (to lucas)
09:41 Keybuk we used to use snapshot.debian.net as an archive of old
debian packages
09:41 Keybuk but that crashed
09:41 lucas ok, but then, how can I help investigating this ? :)
09:41 Keybuk so we've since used a morgue published by the Debian
FTP masters
lucas: pick a package for which it picked an older
09:41 Keybuk version that it should, and try to find out when that
version was published, and whether it was mirrored to
Debian's mirrors, etc.
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09:42 lucas Keybuk: is MoM's source available somewhere ?
09:42 Keybuk no, MoM is not open source
09:42 Keybuk mostly because it's very crap code
09:42 Keybuk and totally unfit for release to the world
=== Kamion tries to remember enough about the innards of katie to remember
whether packages that are superseded while still in the accepted queue end
up in the morgue
09:43 Kamion I'm sure they should ...
09:44 lucas Keybuk: could I have a copy of the code then ? so I
could understand the inner workings better
09:44 Keybuk lucas: I'd have to talk to Mark about it, you may have
to sign an NDA, etc.
09:44 Keybuk it's not that clever, it just downloads the packages
and diffs them
09:44 Keybuk it's almost certainly not a mom bug
09:45 Keybuk but a problem at Debian's end
09:45 lucas opensourcing MoM would be great to enhance
collaboration with debian
09:45 lucas since it would help make it more useful for debian
maintainers too
09:45 lucas (is MoM in charge of generating "scott's patches" too ?
09:45 Keybuk no, a program called NDA does that
09:46 Keybuk tbh
09:46 Keybuk looking at the problem right now
09:46 Keybuk it's simply that Debian's morgue has run out of disk
space again
09:46 lucas ok
09:46 Kamion /dev/cciss/c0d0p7 690834712 689351076 1483636 100%
/org
09:46 Keybuk they only have up to 2005-11-07 published
09:47 Keybuk :p
09:47 Kamion so it has
09:47 Keybuk there we go then
09:47 lucas so, back to my initial proposal, it might still be a
good idea to have our own morgue
09:47 Keybuk I'll make it a personal task to go speak to the Debian
FTP master and arrange for another go
09:47 Kamion when does snapshot.d.n date back to?
Kamion: dunno, I got bored of trying to find out
09:47 Keybuk because it still claims to have the files and just 404s
them
09:48 Keybuk obviously this is all kinda moot since merge-fest is
now over until the feisty cycle
09:48 lucas because doing MOTU work when you don't have the base
version really is a PITA
09:48 Kamion it claims 2005/03/13
09:48 Kamion do mom/nda try snapshot.debian.net to see if it works?
09:48 Keybuk Kamion: no, not currently, because Python's urllib
doesn't handle 404s :)
09:48 Kamion fixing that might help a lot
09:49 Amaranth urllib2?
09:49 Keybuk Amaranth: that was more complicated and less well
documented <g>
09:50 Amaranth Keybuk: sure, but urllib is also mostly dead
09:50 lucas using snapshot.d.n or the ftpmaster's morgue doesn't
seem like a solution on the long term to me ...
09:50 Kamion seems like a perfectly good solution to me, actually
09:50 Kamion I mean, AIUI, we're basically rsyncing the Debian
morgue locally, aren't we?
09:50 Keybuk mjg59: ?
09:51 Keybuk Kamion: pretty much, yes
09:51 lucas well, if it runs out of space regularly without use
noticing
09:51 lucas there's no point in using it
09:51 Kamion there's no difference between that and "keeping our own
morgue", other than acquisition method
09:51 Amaranth perhaps i way of marking ubuntu changes in the package
itself could work?
09:51 Kamion once != regularly
09:51 Amaranth so you wouldn't need the original
09:51 lucas two times already
09:51 Kamion the last time MOM failed it was because snapshot.d.n
broke
09:51 Kamion AIUI
09:52 mjg59 I'm afraid I don't know enough about MOM to have strong
opinions on this
09:52 Keybuk Amaranth: that would require a new source format, etc.
using two different sources should be adequate
09:52 Kamion redundancy, if Keybuk fixes the inability to handle
404s
mjg59: big evil hacky python script, downloads three
09:52 Keybuk versions, mashes them together with diff and patch to
make a fourth
09:52 Kamion well, two plus the various others that are already
tried
09:52 mjg59 Keybuk: Yeah
09:52 Keybuk it's nowhere near as clever or useful as everyone
thinks it is
09:53 Amaranth three versions?
09:53 Keybuk Amaranth: Current Ubuntu, Current Debian, Common Base
09:53 Amaranth oh, new debian, ubuntu, original debian
09:54 lucas Keybuk: couldn't you talk with mark about opensourcing
MoM and NDA ?
09:54 lucas so other people could work on improving them
09:54 Keybuk lucas: it's not so much a Mark issue, it's a me issue
09:54 Keybuk I seriously don't believe the code is any kind of fit
state to release
09:54 lucas I didn't talk about release
09:54 Keybuk releasing implies support
09:54 lucas just put it in bzr somewhere
09:54 Keybuk it implies accepting patches
09:55 ajmitch it implies people asking 'wtf?' about parts of the code
imo having MoM reports at hand is a nice addon but not
09:55 sistpoty absolutely necessary to do merges; but I guess that
many other MOTU's think different about that.
09:55 lucas so it's better to have a not-so-good MoM ?
09:55 sivang Keybuk: maybe this could be rewritten from scratch ?
;-)
09:55 Keybuk lucas: I don't really see how it's useful to anyone
either, tbh
09:55 Keybuk it's full of very Ubuntu-specific coe
09:55 Keybuk like filing bugs in Malone
09:56 Keybuk sivang: it's been "to be replaced by something in
Launchpad" for a while now
09:57 lucas I've heard quite a lot of comments about nda's output
not being considered very helpful by debian maintainers
09:57 sivang Keybuk: ah, I see. I guess this should come rather
quick then not now Soyuz is pushed to landing.
09:57 Keybuk lucas: nobody's ever made them to me
09:57 lucas (like: it doesn't list source packages by maintainer)
clearly the output of any automated tool is going to be
09:57 Kamion less useful than people reporting bugs with patches
manually
09:57 Kamion although, yes, source packages by maintainer would be
useful to me even :)
09:57 Keybuk lucas: no, but it provides something for Debian to
write their own page like that
09:58 Keybuk http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/PATCHES
09:58 Keybuk ^ was added at Debian's request so they could build
systems around "the current Ubuntu patch set"
09:58 Keybuk the Debian PTS uses it, for example
it's far easier for Debian to write things to their
09:58 Keybuk taste than to file bugs, and have us do it when we have
time
09:59 lucas my point is not about debian collaboration. It's about
nda/mom not being as good as they could be.
09:59 Keybuk they do the job well enough
10:00 Keybuk everything could be better
10:00 Keybuk but at some point you have to stop polishing and move
on
10:00 lucas ok
10:00 lucas I'm not really satisfied, but I think we can move to
next point
10:01 lucas since nothing else is going to get out of this one
10:01 Keybuk I'll happily take suggestions for improvement via
e-mail, if they're good ideas
10:01 Keybuk but yes
10:01 Keybuk let's move on
10:01 Keybuk any other business?
10:02 Keybuk ok then
10:02 Keybuk see you all in two weeks, everyone
10:03 dholbach see you Keybuk :-)
=== dholbach hugs Keybuk.
10:04 ogra Keybuk, thanks for running the meeting :)MeetingLogs/Technical_2006-01-31 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:28:33 by localhost)