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09:07   gnomefreak      k are we ready?
09:08   gnomefreak      What's happening about a Thunderbird debugging symbols package? This is needed urgently.
09:09   AlexLatchford   Can we go in order?
09:09   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: skipping point 1 for now
09:09   AlexLatchford   wait, it is lol
09:09   asac    i was offering to produce some ... however I now got to know that we won't need it as they should be generated automagically
09:09   keescook        gnomefreak: the problem, as I understand it, is that security update builds don't get the dbgsyms packages published correctly.
09:09   gnomefreak      going over last meeting is not top proirity
09:10   keescook        it should exist for feisty, though, do they not?
09:10   gnomefreak      asac: apport is gonna do tb?
09:10   gnomefreak      pittis repo has debug package for tb in feisty only
09:11   keescook        gnomefreak: I think pitti is working on this already, I will check with him.
09:11   asac    keescook: good point ... however that is not an issue for us imo
09:11   asac    I can ask him
09:11   asac    I don't know though if this will be set up for edgy
09:11   AlexLatchford   it is for the new apport structure?
09:11   AlexLatchford   I am presuming yes
09:11   gnomefreak      not sure my tb doesnt crash :(
09:11   AlexLatchford   so we would need to produce an entriely new package for Edgy and Dapper
09:11   keescook        asac: okay, you're closer to pitti's timezone.  :)
09:12   gnomefreak      ok someone is gonna ping him?
09:13   asac    yes ... will ask him
09:13   gnomefreak      ty
09:13   gnomefreak      ok lets go to What will our team crash policy be? It may not coincide with BugSquad, however for our purposes, we have need to work around that. --Freddy
09:13   AlexLatchford   So asac to call pitti about tb debug package
09:13   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: yep
09:13   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: have you heard from Freddy?
09:14   AlexLatchford   erm, not recently
09:14   AlexLatchford   he said he would be here though didn't he?
09:14   asac    I think our main focus should be to sort out duplicates and bring crasher bugs in a shape that we can submit them upstream
09:14   AlexLatchford   I agree with asac
09:14   gnomefreak      agreed
09:14   keescook        I've done a bit of work on apport-retrace to make sure it gets a fuller retrace (plugin libraries, etc)
09:14   AlexLatchford   I don't like blindly disrgarding all the not reproducible crashes
09:15   gnomefreak      what do people think about https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2007-January/000037.html
09:15   gnomefreak      i was asked about it
09:15   asac    keescook: whats the state of apport-retrace ... can we run apport-retrace locally already? e.g. without asking users to do so?
09:16   keescook        asac: yeah, you can sort of trick apport-retrace into rebuild a trace.  it's not at its final state (where it will download from launchpad directly)
09:16   keescook        hi zakame
09:16   keescook        basically, to do a retrace:
09:16   keescook        - download ProcMaps.txt, CoreDump.gz
09:16   asac    keescook: ah ... ok ... thats why it failed with me :)
09:17   zakame  hi keescook! ooh, mozilla team meeting...
09:17   gnomefreak      than run apport-retrace on them?
09:17   keescook        - gunzip CoreDump.gz
09:17   keescook        - apport -o /tmp/retraced.crash -r CoreDump -x /usr/lib/firefox/firefox-bin -m ProcMaps.txt -v -d -C /tmp/ddebs /dev/null
09:18   keescook        you'll need to have the same arch, version of program, plugins, etc installed to do this correctly
09:18   gnomefreak      there has go to be an easier way
09:18   keescook        gnomefreak: not yet.  but there will be eventually
09:18   gnomefreak      k
09:18   AlexLatchford   hmm, how big is the debugging symbols package?
09:18   asac    dunno ... quite big
09:19   AlexLatchford   could we not get it included by default?
09:19   gnomefreak      i suggest since we dont always get the best of info from  users we ask them to run the retrace
09:19   keescook        pitti is working on an automatically chroot'd retracing thing
=== gnomefreak can sit there all day guessing what the user has installed
09:19   asac    firefox-dbg Size: 50310432
09:20   gnomefreak      mozilla-thunderbird-dbgsym Size: 133966
09:20   AlexLatchford   from what I see there are alot of users who get a crash, report it and then get told to redo it, why not put a message in Apport that checks to see if the debugging package is installed and asks the user to install it if necessary?
09:20   AlexLatchford   couldn't that be done?
09:21   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: it is
09:21   gnomefreak      the new apport sends all info to bugs for you
09:21   AlexLatchford   with debugging symbols?
09:21   gnomefreak      thats why you see 6 or so files (parts of crashreport)
09:21   asac    AlexLatchford: i hoped that we don't need that roundtrip, but could symbolized the report on our own
09:21   keescook        AlexLatchford: I'd agree, we should open a bug against apport-gtk for this feature.
09:21   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: it has everything i believe
09:22   AlexLatchford   can I clarify, in feisty will apport get the debugging symbols somehow for you, with or without your permissions before uploading the reports?
09:22   keescook        asac: if it's a local crash, the apport-retrace command is much shorter.  :)  apport-retrace -o /tmp/retraced.crash -v -d -C /tmp/ddebs /var/crash/CRASH
09:23   keescook        AlexLatchford: presently apport-gtk does not do this.  I am unclear if pitti intends this to change before feisty releases.
09:23   AlexLatchford   it would make our lives a lot, and also I am sure there are other packages out there that could benefit from this kind of feature also
09:24   gnomefreak      not best example but https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beryl-settings/+bug/83449
09:24   Ubugtu  Malone bug 83449 in beryl-settings "[apport]  beryl-settings crashed with UnboundLocalError in statePopup()" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]
09:24   gnomefreak      there are around 5 or 6 parts not 3
09:24   keescook        AlexLatchford: I'd agree.
09:24   gnomefreak      but i dont think it skips debugging info
09:24   gnomefreak      or it would be useless
09:25   AlexLatchford   hmm ok
09:25   AlexLatchford   well asac can you contact pitti about this also, seeing as you can contacting him about the tb debugging symbols?
09:25   gnomefreak      this is gonna fit in with pinging pitti?
09:25   AlexLatchford   believe so
09:26   asac    so can we resymbolize reports send from a package without debug symbols or not?
09:26   asac    i can do that ... anyway, I need to know what to ask :)
09:26   keescook        asac: if a CoreDump is available, you can resymbolize the report after the fact, yes.  Without the core, no luck.  :)
09:26   AlexLatchford   no so we don't get any unsymbolized reports at all, apport should notice when the debugging symbols are not installed and request for them to be
09:27   AlexLatchford   before submitting the report
09:27   gnomefreak      keescook: i still havent seen that done. they say you can but never seena  command for it
09:27   gnomefreak      do we really want to download *everyones* crash reports?
09:27   keescook        gnomefreak: I just pasted the steps above.  :)  the final goal is to have Launchpad do the retracing automatically.
09:27   keescook        right now, we have to do it by hand
09:27   gnomefreak      keescook: oh its just the retrace
09:28   crimsun I'd say it's feasible IFF a binary-only plugin/extension is /not/ involved
09:28   gnomefreak      we dont have that many plugins for ff
09:28   gnomefreak      or tb
09:29   crimsun e.g., a disproportionate number are attributable to Adobe Flash
09:29   gnomefreak      although i keep being pinged to add some like colorzilla
09:30   gnomefreak      with the number of bugs that are sitting there and the 10 or so of us. its not smart to add more plugins, just incase anyone is watching that has either asked about them on bugs or in IRC
09:31   gnomefreak      ready to move forward?
09:31   AlexLatchford   hmm ok, so asac can you talk to pitti about the tb debugging symbols and about adding in debugging symbol auto detection system also?
09:31   AlexLatchford   (clarify the action needing to be taken)
09:31   gnomefreak      pinging is gonna turn into all day convo
09:32   AlexLatchford   not now, later
09:32   asac    yes I will try to figure out what the idea is and what can be done.
09:32   AlexLatchford   aha thanks
09:32   AlexLatchford   think we are now John
09:32   gnomefreak      ok david emailed about a stats report. see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beryl-settings/+bug/83449
09:32   Ubugtu  Malone bug 83449 in beryl-settings "[apport]  beryl-settings crashed with UnboundLocalError in statePopup()" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]
09:32   asac    ok ... for procedure of processing crashers, can we agree to start to resymbolize crashers that contain core dumps on our own
09:32   gnomefreak      crap
09:32   asac    ?
09:32   gnomefreak      https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2007-January/000037.html
09:32   asac    and then try to find duplicates?
09:33   gnomefreak      asac: yes
09:33   AlexLatchford   onto Bug Stats
09:33   AlexLatchford   this is something that I think could be pretty cool, to track our progress
09:33   gnomefreak      i think it would be nice to have but how important is it?
09:33   gnomefreak      and im not shooting it down im asking how important to people is it?
09:34   asac    i have no opinion on that
09:34   gnomefreak      i say if someone has time to do it do it but other wise we have more pressing issues IMHO
09:34   AlexLatchford   It;s not something we need to waste time on, but a few emails wont hurt
09:35   bdmurray        I'm working on doing some general bug statistics on a per package basis.
09:35   gnomefreak      cool bdmurray :)
09:35   crimsun I don't think it's really worthwhile for FF [it'd be akin to tracking stats for say, ubiquity]
09:35   asac    we could establish something like a monthly/quarterly status announcement about the progress ... somewhere :)
09:36   AlexLatchford   well we have close to the number of bugs Ubiquity does
09:36   gnomefreak      ;)
09:36   AlexLatchford   I believe
09:36   gnomefreak      Can we remove the disclaimer yet?
09:36   gnomefreak      i say yes.
09:36   Admiral_Chicago so do I
09:37   heno    anyone here tried using bughelper for triaging?
09:37   gnomefreak      k
09:37   gnomefreak      heno: cant i havent figured out how to write the clue yet
09:37   asac    has there been an approval?
09:37   heno    gnomefreak: heh, ok
09:37   gnomefreak      dont need one
09:37   AlexLatchford   I didn't think we needed offical approval
09:37   gnomefreak      heno: if you got time feel free to write it :)
09:38   Admiral_Chicago we don't
09:38   asac    k
09:38   AlexLatchford   well ill remove it now then
09:38   gnomefreak      i have a feeling its gonna be a 3 year project for me
09:38   gnomefreak      or ill ping david see if he wants to write them
09:38   gnomefreak      Build up a relationship with the Mozilla, Adobe and any other teams we need to correspond with.
09:39   bdmurray        gnomefreak: I'd be happy to write them
09:39   gnomefreak      if you got time go for it :)
09:39   Admiral_Chicago i'm sorry, I just got here, can someone fill me in on what we have done so far
=== gnomefreak needs to learn what it needs to look for
09:39   bdmurray        I'd need to know what type of stuff you see frequently though.
09:39   gnomefreak      plguin crashes
09:39   gnomefreak      lol
09:40   gnomefreak      plugin
09:40   AlexLatchford   Freddy: believe we are on Working with other Teams
09:40   asac    I have some connection into the mozilla project ... and better ones to debian.
09:40   asac    though debian will be our upstream in future
09:40   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: most so far is asac is gonna talk to pitti about debugging symbols/crashreports apport
09:40   Admiral_Chicago okay let me pull up the meeting page, my network is being slow
09:40   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: ty
09:41   gnomefreak      asac: will or will not?
09:41   asac    s/will be/will not be/
09:41   gnomefreak      ah :)
09:41   asac    :)
09:41   gnomefreak      ok before moving on. who here can read a backtrace good?
09:41   asac    however we still might tap there know-how by monitoring the patches they include
09:41   crimsun whew
09:41   AlexLatchford   yes, do we have the change the thunderbird logo in future releases?
09:41   Admiral_Chicago i can not
09:42   asac    thunderbird will become official too
09:42   AlexLatchford   I cannot read one and diagnose where the problem really lies, I can detect if the debugging symbols are not installed
09:42   asac    firefox will be repackaged
09:42   keescook        gnomefreak: I can understand them, but I am not very familiar with the mozilla codebases.
09:42   crimsun I'm with keescook on the matter
09:42   asac    actually it will almost be the same, but the patches will be sorted out and need approval by mozilla corporation
09:43   gnomefreak      bdmurray: ill contact david about the bug helper clues
09:43   gnomefreak      find out what we need to use
09:43   gnomefreak      do we have any upstream adobe connections?
09:43   asac    i doubt it.
09:43   AlexLatchford   not that I know of
09:43   AlexLatchford   we have rhelmer from Mozilla
=== gnomefreak didnt think so
09:44   AlexLatchford   but none from Adobe
09:44   Admiral_Chicago nope, iirc David had one
09:44   gnomefreak      well with flash crimsun and our motu team should be fine. since last time i checked flash doesnt give a damn about patching thier drivers
09:45   gnomefreak      if they did flash 7 would have fixed flash 7 issues
09:45   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: your topic is next care to take it for a few i have phone call
09:46   gnomefreak      Contacts list. (Build up a list of people to contact about certain types of bugs). - Alex
09:46   AlexLatchford   Well my idea is to build up a contacts list, basically when you have a confirmed bug, you want to assign it to someone who is going to fix it for the next release
09:46   AlexLatchford   if its an Ubuntu bug that is
09:47   AlexLatchford   This list probably won't just be Mozilla Specific in the end, but say if there is a dependency error, who do you assign it to, to get it fixed?
09:47   AlexLatchford   I have no clue. There should be a list of people who you can assign problems to so they can fix them
09:48   Admiral_Chicago well this gets to the idea of restructuring our wiki (/me has been busy so haven't got around to it)
09:48   AlexLatchford   yes
09:48   Admiral_Chicago i'm going to structure them as A. Bug Reported, Bug Triagers, etc
09:49   AlexLatchford   I think that this list isn't something we as a team can do much about, we really need to push it up the pile a bit
09:49   gnomefreak      still on phone but im tempted to say let the person know. example i have a flash bug been confirmed i go to crimsun and say look i have this what do you what to do with it?
09:50   AlexLatchford   yeah the restructure is happening gradually, I have rewritten most of the documentation apart from the ones relating to bugs
09:50   AlexLatchford   yes gnomefreak, its sort of like a list of people, so if you have a flash bug you can assign it to crimsun to deal with later
09:50   AlexLatchford   but if you don't know who crimsun was who do you assign it to?
09:51   Admiral_Chicago hopefully we don't come into that
09:51   crimsun just a note, but we really should not just 'assign' like that
09:51   heno    assigning bugs to people can be tricky
09:51   Admiral_Chicago I would like to see our team working to a point were we know who can handle what
09:51   heno    they may not appreciate that :)
09:51   crimsun e.g., I much prefer to be subscribed to instead of assigned to
09:52   heno    perhaps using tags would be better ?
09:52   AlexLatchford   well thats a better way of dealing with it
09:52   heno    crimsun: ++
09:52   asac    i think first there should be a way to tag bugs so one can properly search for bugs by a topic (e.g. 'flash')
09:52   asac    is there something like that in malone?
09:52   AlexLatchford   hmm, yes
09:52   heno    asac: launchpad does have tags
09:53   gnomefreak      asigning people to a bug is bad because we dont know how backed up they are
09:53   AlexLatchford   thing is assigning a bug to someone forces them to deal with it
09:53   gnomefreak      we can tag them
09:53   heno    but their are a bit chaotically used
09:53   asac    yes ... better make it easier to find bugs of your preference
09:53   AlexLatchford   there are hundreds of confirmed bugs in the firefox list
09:53   asac    by categorizing them somehoww
09:53   AlexLatchford   but what actually happens to them?
09:53   Admiral_Chicago and lots to close...
=== gnomefreak working on packaging atm
09:53   heno    the team could set up a tagging policy
09:53   AlexLatchford   Admiral_Chicago: agreed
09:53   gnomefreak      not this sec
09:53   heno    where each tag is defined in the wiki
09:54   asac    heno: agree
09:54   AlexLatchford   heno: yes that would make sense
09:54   Admiral_Chicago a tag database that is used in house?
09:54   AlexLatchford   yes
09:54   heno    mt-tagname == MozillaTeam-tagname, e.g.
09:55   heno    Admiral_Chicago: what do you mean, database?
09:55   gnomefreak      what are the tags gonna do for us? just make it easier to find bugs?
09:55   asac    so who will set up the initial list
09:55   Admiral_Chicago heno: a list of our tags that we all use
09:55   heno    gnomefreak: you can sort without having to assign
09:55   asac    i think the list of tags will evolve eventually ... for now it would be a good start to setup the most obvious tags
09:55   heno    less contentious
09:56   heno    Admiral_Chicago: right
09:56   AlexLatchford   well thing is that setting tags is useful, but how can we actually get bugs fixed?
09:56   asac    bugs are either fixed by upstream
09:56   Admiral_Chicago is that what we agree to use, maintain a list of tags to use? I'm for it
09:56   asac    or they are fixed by anyone of the team ... e.g. me
09:56   AlexLatchford   +1 Admiral_Chicago
09:56   gnomefreak      yeah lets do it. can someone make a wiki about tagging how to when to and list of tags
09:57   AlexLatchford   asac: we cannot fix bugs, we can offer up patches, but we cannot upload I don't think?
09:57   Admiral_Chicago in reality, most of these bugs are upstream bugs OR user errors
09:57   asac    AlexLatchford: I can :)
09:57   Admiral_Chicago mostly the later
09:57   AlexLatchford   I will setup the initial tagging page
09:57   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: sure we can
09:57   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: will do it
09:57   gnomefreak      ty Admiral_Chicago
=== gnomefreak hopes he meant he will do it
09:57   AlexLatchford   who is going to setup the tag list then?
09:58   Admiral_Chicago AlexLatchford: we can start it on the mailing list
09:58   AlexLatchford   aha ok, Freddy can you start the ball rolling?
09:58   asac    just start and tag all flash issues
09:58   asac    :)
09:58   asac    maybe we can discuss on irc before a new tag is added
09:58   Admiral_Chicago AlexLatchford: sure, I'll make a note on Knote and do it after I finish my reading for tonight
09:58   gnomefreak      +1 asac
09:59   AlexLatchford   +1 asac also
09:59   asac    and if you feel you need a tag, discuss it
09:59   asac    :)
09:59   Admiral_Chicago asac: +1
09:59   asac    nothing formal ... i don't think it should be necessary to wait till we have an official meeting
09:59   AlexLatchford   ok so Freddy to start balling rolling on tagging list for bugs
09:59   asac    if people complain we can always make a more strict policy
09:59   AlexLatchford   agreed
09:59   gnomefreak      start with flash
10:00   AlexLatchford   yes
10:00   Admiral_Chicago Flash is probably where most of our issues come from. rather, Flash 9
10:00   Admiral_Chicago err 7
10:00   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: i would agree if i can read the damn traces better
10:00   asac    one more important tag I would like to suggest right away is upstream-dupe
10:00   asac    actually often bugs are posted for which one is sure that there is a corresponding upstream bug
10:01   gnomefreak      +1 but that is a long week
10:01   AlexLatchford   ok, moving on I think?
10:01   heno    asac: you can also set an upstream tag linking to their BT
10:01   Admiral_Chicago I don't ever use teh Mozilla Bug Tracker, I suppose I should start...
10:01   asac    but looking up right away is not possible either ... its too disruptive and one might not find it in bugzilla on the first glance
10:01   Admiral_Chicago yes moving it along AlexLatchford
10:01   heno    accessibility?
10:01   AlexLatchford   indeed I believe
10:01   gnomefreak      heno: yep
10:01   asac    heno: yeah ... but a tag where i have not already found the url
10:02   asac    but am sure that one exists
10:02   heno    OK, let me do a little intro:
10:02   asac    actually upstream does this too ... they add the dupe keyword if they know that there is a duplicate, but cannot find it
10:02   gnomefreak      we really nee da wiki on how to read crash reports
10:02   asac    :)
10:02   heno    A great deal of effort over the past year has gone into making a better screen reader for Linux (Orca -- try it) There is a considerable number of blind people running Ubuntu with Orca already.
10:02   Admiral_Chicago i can't write that, I hope someone else will gnomefreak
10:02   asac    gnomefreak: thats not that simple ... the basic is pretty clear
10:02   heno    For the next 6-12 months we will mostly be focusing on applications and Firefix is at the top of that list. It's important for obvious reasons (access to the web), but also non-trivial to get access right.
10:02   Admiral_Chicago heno: it doesn't work on Feisty ATM
10:03   asac    but to derive real info can be pretty hard
10:03   heno    Admiral_Chicago: what, FF3?
10:03   heno    or Orca?
10:03   Admiral_Chicago heno: Orca
10:04   heno    I sure there are intermittent bugs
10:04   heno    it's never really worked with Firefox though
10:04   heno    and that's the point
10:04   heno    until FF3 at least
10:04   heno    The Gnome/Orca people are working closely with Mozilla on this. That includes people from Sun and IBM. All the accessibility effort is going into Firefox 3 and TB 2. As the #1 accessibility distro we should be closely involved as well.
10:04   gnomefreak      we want orca to work with firefox?
10:05   Admiral_Chicago of course
10:05   heno    gnomefreak: of course!
10:05   gnomefreak      :)
10:05   asac    heno: they go in TB 2?
=== gnomefreak uses tb2 and ff3
10:05   asac    and not ff 2 ?
10:05   heno    asac: the a11y fixes, yes
10:05   heno    they are not focusing on ff2 for that
10:05   gnomefreak      asac: are they working on a ff2.5 or something?
10:06   heno    not that I know of
10:06   AlexLatchford   heno: so we need to test Orca with Firefox more?
10:06   asac    gnomefreak: not that i heard of
10:06   AlexLatchford   so we can iron out the bugs, or is there something specific we can do?
10:06   gnomefreak      k than i can see why only ff3
10:06   heno    AlexLatchford: for example yes, or just be awre of the issues
10:07   heno    we are likely to see bugs filed that seem od to the 'normal' user
10:07   heno    Firefox refuses to speak this page ...
10:07   gnomefreak      orca speaks?
10:07   Admiral_Chicago good pount
10:07   AlexLatchford   aha ok, well maybe a wiki page explaining the more common accessibility issues?
10:07   AlexLatchford   ones that triagers may come across
10:07   gnomefreak      thought it was a magnifing glass type app
10:07   asac    maybe start tagging them accessible :)
10:08   Admiral_Chicago can someone tell me what we decided on crash reports?
10:08   gnomefreak      +1 AlexLatchford and asac
10:08   heno    http://svn.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/orca/trunk/bugs/bugs.html#firefox for examples
10:08   Admiral_Chicago +1 to accesibility
10:08   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: asac is gonna talk to pitti for the most part (i woul dlike him to have something straight forward to ask)
10:08   heno    also see http://www.ubuntu.com/access
10:09   AlexLatchford   thanks alot heno
10:09   asac    i think we decided that I get details about apport support and we try to resymbolize where possible to see duplicates by backtrace
10:09   Admiral_Chicago okay sounds good
10:09   heno    thanks for listening :)
10:09   asac    heno: sorry :-P
10:09   gnomefreak      if we get bughelper to work for us we will breezy through dupes
10:09   AlexLatchford   well we will have a chat about this on the mailing list, try to get up a wiki page outlining common issues for triagers to look out for and maybe setup an accessibility tag also
10:10   heno    asac: ?
10:10   gnomefreak      let me know whos doing wikis in the next few weeks please ther eare some things we need to get in there but it can wait
10:10   AlexLatchford   (hehe wiki pages solve all problems)
10:11   asac    heno: misread I guess ... nevermind
10:11   AlexLatchford   New membership policy up next?
10:11   gnomefreak      Freddy i suggest your point go before new mebershop
10:11   gnomefreak      membership
10:11   gnomefreak      New member education plan. I have some ideas, will discuss at the meeting. -- Freddy
10:12   Admiral_Chicago kk
10:12   Admiral_Chicago sorry was in the restroom
10:12   gnomefreak      asac: im gonna leave you with the sunbird one again :(
10:12   Admiral_Chicago What I would like to see, before we start is getting new members to come in and interact with the team
10:13   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: how so?
10:13   Admiral_Chicago i don't like having bugs reports in my inbox that we have to retriage
10:13   gnomefreak      lol
10:13   AlexLatchford   agreed
10:13   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: for one, we assign things to MozillaTeam not to ourselves
10:13   gnomefreak      your in the wrong feild than
10:13   Admiral_Chicago hold on I wrote some notes on it...
10:14   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: thats outside people using the bugsquads links
10:15   Admiral_Chicago so heer is what I would like. First, get these new members in the IRC channel
10:16   Admiral_Chicago One thing I like is when we are exchanges ideas on bug # X, we as a team can see how we communticate and deal with bugs
10:16   AlexLatchford   agreed
10:17   Admiral_Chicago secondly, getting new members in the channel will introduce us to each other.
10:17   Admiral_Chicago We are a team after all and need to know who is doing what and have a sense of unity.
10:18   Admiral_Chicago The third part of that is I would like to show new members around stack traces
10:18   Admiral_Chicago obviously, this will take some time because we need to brush up on this as well
10:19   AlexLatchford   yes, I think that the most daunting task for new triagers is definately crash reports
10:20   AlexLatchford   maybe a total rewrite of the GettingStarted wiki page is where to start with that?
10:20   Admiral_Chicago yes, learning to read them, how to sort them, tell what is an extension, plugin etc
10:20   AlexLatchford   linking to in from the Membership page
10:20   Admiral_Chicago have a link?
10:20   asac    yes, but there are lots of others which can be more easily triaged by finding its upstream bug for instance
10:20   AlexLatchford   Admiral_Chicago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/GettingStarted
10:20   AlexLatchford   Outlines a few dos and donts
10:20   Admiral_Chicago thanks AlexLatchford
10:21   AlexLatchford   but nothing really much like actually getting started
10:21   Admiral_Chicago ideally, we could have a mentor type thing, before they are accepted on the team
10:21   gnomefreak      how about before someone can become a member (if they are not experenced with bugs or mozilla bugs they meet us in IRC and they can ask us what to do so they learn?
10:22   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: ^^
10:22   gnomefreak      how many of our members have QA access other than me and asac
10:22   gnomefreak      oh and crimsun
10:22   Admiral_Chicago I've done this with the Chicago LoCo, teaching to triage
10:22   Admiral_Chicago not I, I would have applied the last HugDay but I was busy
10:23   asac    ok ... so we encourage new members to first start bug-triaging ... and offer to help them here on irc ?
10:23   gnomefreak      yes unless ofcourse they are an easy pick
10:23   Admiral_Chicago like crimsun :)
10:23   asac    s/new members/new contributors/
10:24   gnomefreak      i have 2 people that applied with like 0 karma and no other teams so im kind of reluctant to accept them atm
10:24   asac    ask them to contribute ... can anyone tag bugs?
10:24   AlexLatchford   yes asac
10:24   Admiral_Chicago I would like our team to be open where if someone wants to help, they find a place. i have not seen that in some other teams.
10:24   asac    if so maybe they want to help going through the list?
10:24   gnomefreak      once the wiki is up sure any one can
10:24   asac    and tag them ;)
10:24   AlexLatchford   in the left side menu when you are on a bug page
10:24   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: in that case, we email them and ask them to come and meet with us.
10:25   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: i will
10:25   gnomefreak      sometime this week
10:25   Admiral_Chicago we show them around and if they do good work, at the next meeting (or whenever), we can vote on them
10:25   Admiral_Chicago per david's suggestion
10:25   gnomefreak      w ewill go through that i think. he did fairly good on that iirc
10:26   Admiral_Chicago he == ?
10:26   gnomefreak      ok with the new members and the tags can we write up a quick wiki on that mainly an outline and when we get to it we will add tags ect...
10:26   gnomefreak      he == david
10:27   gnomefreak      its the final agenda pint
10:27   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: i will do that after dinner.
10:27   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: doesnt have to be today
10:27   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: well i have everything open in Knotes, I'll do it sooner rather than later
10:28   AlexLatchford   yeah. (I have added the wiki suggestion to the Todo page)
10:28   asac    ok ... we are done with membership/education?
10:28   AlexLatchford   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Todo
10:28   gnomefreak      ty AlexLatchford
10:28   Admiral_Chicago i'm done
10:28   gnomefreak      asac: yes its your turn with pochu and the sunbird thing i asked you about during the patching
10:29   gnomefreak      pochu: ok your up
10:29   asac    yes ... i think in general it would not be a wise idea to package sunbird atm
10:29   pochu   hey :)
10:29   pochu   well, there is somebody who wants to see sunbird in the repos
10:29   pochu   debian has it
10:29   AlexLatchford   what release status is Sunbird at?
10:29   asac    last time i looked it was not released from stable mozilla branches
10:29   pochu   0.3
10:29   asac    and authors refused to do so
10:29   pochu   0.5 in a little time
10:29   asac    upon request
10:30   AlexLatchford   hmm and its not stable?
10:30   asac    ... but releasing from trunk makes serious stability/security nearly impossible
10:30   gnomefreak      pochu: we cant add anything to our repos that doesnt have a stable release date
10:30   Admiral_Chicago 0.3 atm
10:30   pochu   I don't know what you want to say with stable, asac
10:30   asac    it might be stable ... but upstream does not release under a stable branch policy
10:30   pochu   gnomefreak: I use it and it's stable ;)
10:30   pochu   asac: oh, ok
10:30   pochu   then we can wait
10:30   gnomefreak      pochu: what works for you doesnt mean it works for others
10:30   Admiral_Chicago stable on your system perhaps
10:31   pochu   gnomefreak: of course :)
10:31   pochu   maybe for feisty +1?
10:31   AlexLatchford   I believe that Sunbird should be packaged for Ubuntu, but not for Feisty, maybe Feisty+1 if its ready
10:31   asac    its not stable in terms on what you want in the release
10:31   gnomefreak      pochu: lets see what mozilla does first
10:31   pochu   gnomefreak: I'll mail the main dev, if you want
10:31   gnomefreak      pochu: i suggest pushing upstream to releasse stable
10:31   pochu   just to ask their plans
10:31   asac    pochu: join #calendar
10:32   asac    on irc.mozilla.org
10:32   gnomefreak      pochu: but they are a bit more conerned about other things
10:32   asac    i talked to some
10:32   heno    Chandler will be out in preview form in April, which might steal a lot of Sunbird's thunder
10:32   asac    if they have changed there mind .e.g. rlease from MOZILLA_1_8_BRANCH, then it might make sense
10:32   heno    just sayi'n ...
10:33   pochu   well, it's ok
10:33   pochu   let's wait
10:33   pochu   I'll talk the devs to see what are the plans, and I'll say you
10:33   asac    great
10:33   pochu   thanks guys :)
10:33   AlexLatchford   sounds good to me
10:34   AlexLatchford   I would like to see Sunbird in Ubuntu someday, but as a stable release so we don't get silly amounts of bug reports
10:34   Admiral_Chicago yup, we have enough work as it is
10:35   gnomefreak      ok david prettty much goes in deeper to the same things we talked about today at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam/2007-January/000041.html  would like some opinions on it and comments
10:35   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: lets get flash and ff under control before adding that much more work :)
10:35   AlexLatchford   lol yes
10:35   pochu   sounds reasonably
=== gnomefreak is buried for most part in bugs. my spare time is learning to package
10:36   Admiral_Chicago is that it?
10:36   gnomefreak      oh hey tag == depends (if a dependency issue is found)
10:36   AlexLatchford   yes, I agree with Davids comments on point 1.
10:37   Admiral_Chicago hmm, okay we can do that
10:37   gnomefreak      Now Martin Pitt and the launchpad team are working on a way
10:37   gnomefreak      of dealing with the crash reports
10:37   gnomefreak      does that mean he is working with martin?
10:37   AlexLatchford   believe so
10:37   asac    i will know more tomorrow
10:37   gnomefreak      or should we ask asac to still ping him? i havent seen david in a while
10:37   AlexLatchford   me neither
10:38   asac    i will definitly ask :) no matter what ;)
10:38   Admiral_Chicago he's been busy.
10:38   gnomefreak      oh my god
10:38   AlexLatchford   I also agree on Davids point 3 about getting a singular version of flash to work flawlessly
10:38   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: i was just oh my godding about that
10:38   gnomefreak      who here can write thier own flash app? to read flash movies
10:38   asac    yes ... lets first sort them out and create symbolize patches ... then look what we can see.
10:39   AlexLatchford   at the moment there are about 4 versions of the flash plugin (not gnash, just flash itself), we need to cut this down to just 1
10:39   asac    who maintains those?
10:39   Admiral_Chicago true, but iirc, that is for different version
10:40   gnomefreak      asac: i dont think anyone really does
10:40   AlexLatchford   well how many flash versions do you need?
10:40   AlexLatchford   there is Flash 9, thats all there should be
10:40   AlexLatchford   then the alternatives, gnash etc..
10:40   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: breezy is still supported i think and we cant port flash9 for breezy
10:41   gnomefreak      gnash works like shit
10:41   Admiral_Chicago yup, issues like that are the reason we have so many
10:41   gnomefreak      a flash for each arch would do
10:41   Admiral_Chicago i just mark everything flashplugin-nonfee
=== Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:41   Admiral_Chicago free
10:41   AlexLatchford   +1 on gnomefreak
10:41   gnomefreak      AlexLatchford: you offering to build them?
10:42   AlexLatchford   lol no
10:42   gnomefreak      ok if someone can talk to david about it maybe his connection at adobe can help but reemmber they are nonfree
10:42   AlexLatchford   yes
10:42   Admiral_Chicago i'm mailing him now
10:43   Admiral_Chicago literally, I was emailing him
10:43   gnomefreak      ok good wait to send it until we are done with him?
10:43   Admiral_Chicago yup
10:43   gnomefreak      4.  Wiki We need to recruit a writer to help us sort that mess out;)
10:43   AlexLatchford   Well I have started on that
10:44   AlexLatchford   I haven't got too far though
10:44   gnomefreak      ok cool
10:44   AlexLatchford   I have cleaned up a few pages, but I need to improve my actual knowledge a little more beofre tackling the others
10:44   Admiral_Chicago i'm supposed to be doing that aswell
10:44   AlexLatchford   yeah, If you want to jump in thats cool
10:44   Admiral_Chicago i have knowledge about wiki formating
10:45   gnomefreak      guys get outlines going to start with we can work out details later
10:45   gnomefreak      speaking of docs team members
10:45   gnomefreak      :)
10:45   Admiral_Chicago haha
10:45   AlexLatchford   *rolls eyes*
10:45   gnomefreak      Admiral_Chicago: are you ML admin?
10:45   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: no
10:45   gnomefreak      just david?
10:46   Admiral_Chicago i think so, are you looking to admin / one of us?
10:46   gnomefreak      i would like a whatchacallit
10:46   Admiral_Chicago I'm admin on ML for Chicago LoCo only.
10:46   Admiral_Chicago ?
10:46   gnomefreak      moderator along with admin
10:46   gnomefreak      add that to your email to him please
10:47   Admiral_Chicago doing that now
10:47   AlexLatchford   want to move back to -mozillateam?
10:47   asac    ok done?
10:47   gnomefreak      if peopel want to talk about the membership council now or i can send it to ML
10:48   Admiral_Chicago gnomefreak: we can do that in mozillateam
10:48   AlexLatchford   Well are we going to set one up?
10:48   Admiral_Chicago AlexLatchford: yes
10:48   AlexLatchford   in mozillateam I think
10:48   gnomefreak      k
10:48   gnomefreak      meeting adjourned?
10:48   gnomefreak      maybe spelled right
10:48   Admiral_Chicago yup
10:49   Admiral_Chicago err I say so
10:49   Admiral_Chicago to the meeting adjournment
10:49   AlexLatchford   yep, I will get the minutes up later
10:49   gnomefreak      ok good i have to get a few things done real fast i have a few questions that can be done in our channel whenever