DocTeam_2006-03-03
10:02 LaserJock ok, who all is here for the Doc Team meeting?
10:04 manicka I'm here
10:05 LaserJock hmm, doesn't look promising
10:05 manicka no
10:06 robotgeek i'm here too
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10:10 LaserJock hmm, well if naaman isn't here...
10:10 manicka there's not much to talk about...
10:14 LaserJock hmm, well does anybody have suggestions for the next meeting?
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10:16 bustacap hello all, is the doc meeting on now?
10:16 manicka hi
10:16 bustacap oh poo where is mdke??
10:16 robotgeek bustacap: naaman isn't here
10:16 manicka lol
10:16 bustacap haha naaman is bustacap :D
10:17 robotgeek bustacap: oh, my bad. lol
10:17 bustacap hehe
=== robotgeek smacks himself
10:17 LaserJock hmm, ok so not many people here then
I just woke up underneath my coffee table in the lounge room
10:18 bustacap (did not know how I got there) at 7am (2100 UTC) thinking "oh
shit, it's the Doc Team meeting"
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10:18 jjesse not around for much longer
10:18 bustacap well, if there isn't any senior members in attendance - I
will convene it...
=== bustacap looks at the MeetingAgenda
10:19 bustacap I am still in my work clothes from yesterday (I had a decent
drinking session straight after work ;) )
10:20 bustacap OK onto the meeting..
10:20 LaserJock well, I think that we might want to try a bit harder to get
some agenda items for next time
10:20 bustacap we will just put issues to the next meeting without the
people here to represent them
10:20 bustacap but onto the first one..
10:21 bustacap using common files in the DocBook documents
10:21 bustacap does anyone else (other than mdke) have something to bring up
about this..
10:21 LaserJock I think a far amount of docs are using the common preface
10:22 bustacap I think this issue has been brought up before at a previous
meeting..
10:22 robotgeek the Kubuntu docs use the common kde entities mostly
10:22 manicka there's a fair maount on commonality between the ubuntu and
kubuntu dg's
10:22 bustacap is this the same as the ubuntu .xml files?
10:23 robotgeek manicka: hmm, i havent seen many common ones, to be honest
10:23 bustacap manicka, I think mdke is after is a common look and feel to
all of the ubuntu documentation..
10:23 manicka ah, ok
10:25 robotgeek well, i don't know if we can discuss this without mdke being
here
10:25 bustacap well to add my two cents - perhaps the preface might be a
little different in the guides
10:26 bustacap but - the getting-help.xml should be exactly the same
10:26 bustacap it should point to the same web-help resources..
10:26 LaserJock what mdke and I were thinking about is about having a common
preface
10:26 LaserJock and perhaps other common elements
10:26 robotgeek bustacap: for examsple the, mailing lists are different
10:26 bustacap for the getting help??
10:27 robotgeek bustacap: yes, ubuntu-users and kubuntu-users
10:27 bustacap well I think that the getting-help should encompass all
versions of ubuntu
10:27 jjesse and the different channels
10:27 bustacap it should say in the USG - for help with Ubuntu -> go here;
for help with Kubuntu -> go here..
10:28 jjesse i don't think there is enough commonality to get common files
10:28 robotgeek jjesse: +1
10:28 bustacap it is documented in the USG to convert over to Kubuntu in the
USG
10:28 jjesse USG == Ubuntu Server Guide?
10:28 robotgeek bustacap: then the KDG takes over :)
10:28 bustacap so there should be help resources on where to go as well..
10:29 bustacap ok - fair call..
10:29 robotgeek bustacap: it's Ubuntu Desktop Guide, the "starter" term is
removed now
10:29 bustacap ooh sorry ;)
10:29 bustacap I am out of the loop :)
10:29 jjesse to make a distinction between server guide nad desktop guide
10:29 bustacap yeah..
10:29 robotgeek bustacap: i was too, until yesterday :)
10:30 LaserJock ok, but anyway I think the goal was to think about
commonality so we can just change things once
10:30 robotgeek LaserJock: i believe the global entities are in one file
10:31 LaserJock right, but we talked about a common preface for example
10:31 bustacap oh, but it is a fair call to say that it is not worth doing..
10:31 bustacap it is a good idea in principle, but I say not to worry about
it..
10:31 bustacap moving on - next item..
10:31 LaserJock but I think that the item is already implemented quite a bit
so it might not be worth discussing in length
10:32 robotgeek LaserJock: yeah, i guess that is the way it is
10:32 robotgeek i copied KDG's preface from UDG
10:32 bustacap WikiCleanupProposal
10:32 bustacap manicka are you in on this?
i would argue for common files where they make sense... for
10:32 jjesse example on the kubuntu side all the docs should use the same
preface if they have a preface
10:32 LaserJock jjesse: exactly
10:33 bustacap for sure jjesse
10:33 LaserJock jjesse: that was the point
10:33 jjesse sorry working so only paying half attention
10:33 manicka I'm prepared to help where i can
10:33 bustacap sure..
10:33 robotgeek jjesse: hmm, it's pretty easy to implement, i guess
10:33 bustacap it should already be implemented for same distro docs..
10:34 LaserJock bustacap: I don't know that it is exactly though
10:34 bustacap LaserJock, I don't think it would be too much effort to
correct
10:35 robotgeek bustacap: it's just changing an entity for me, i'm sure it's
the same for the rest too
10:35 LaserJock right, but people need to be aware of it and do it ;-)
we can say that the preface.xml and getting-help.xml aren't
10:35 bustacap compatible with each other atm and it isn't a smart move to
make them compatible in the future either..
10:36 robotgeek bustacap: preface.xml is document neutral, getting-help.xml
is not
10:36 LaserJock ?
10:36 bustacap there isn't too much to be gained by making them the same
document..
10:36 bustacap well preface.xml could contain more distro-specific
information..
10:36 robotgeek it would make sense for a common preface.xml across both
ubuntu and kubuntu
10:37 bustacap iirc, preface.xml in the UDG talks about the work put in by
the kubuntu team to make an alternative to ubuntu
10:37 robotgeek bustacap: preface just says how the document is formatted and
how to interpret it.
10:37 LaserJock the preface contents are just a " these are the conventions,
etc. used in the doc" and since those should be consistent...
10:37 bustacap oh ok..
10:38 bustacap well that could be the same then..
10:38 robotgeek and getting help could be common across all ubuntu documents,
and all kubuntu docs
it wasn't a huge deal it was just where we can have common
10:38 LaserJock items we should try to, so that we have consistency and
eliminate redundancy
10:39 robotgeek true, it's only a small change to make, let's make it and
keep moving :)
10:39 bustacap well include both Kubuntu and Ubuntu sources of help in both
then..
10:39 bustacap yeah..
10:39 bustacap it will also create more awareness of Kubuntu when people are
looking for help in the UDG as well..
10:40 LaserJock bustacap: the current common preface is distro neutral
10:40 bustacap ok - well make that common across all distros..
10:40 robotgeek LaserJock: maybe not
10:41 robotgeek i have Konsole instead of gnome-terminal
10:41 bustacap in preface??
you guys, it is fine. I don't know what you guys are looking
10:41 LaserJock at but the common preface doesn't have anything distro
specific that I know of
10:41 robotgeek To start a Terminal session, select: Konsole from the
desktop menu system.
10:41 robotgeek maybe i should just rephrase that, lol
10:41 bustacap I wouldn't imagine that would be in preface.xml??
10:42 robotgeek that is in preface
10:42 LaserJock no it isn't
10:42 bustacap why would command-line operations be in a Preface??
10:42 LaserJock robotgeek: look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide preface
10:42 robotgeek okay, atlease in the kdg preface :)
http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/preface.html
10:43 LaserJock robotgeek: that is because it isn't using the common preface!
10:43 robotgeek okay, i think need to change it then
10:43 robotgeek :)
10:43 bustacap well that line could be easily stripped then..
10:43 bustacap it is unnecessary to tell a user how to open a shell from the
Conventions section..
10:43 LaserJock arrghhh, guys, there is a common preface.xml that you can be
using that is distro neutral
10:44 LaserJock you shouldn't have a preface.xml file in your doc directory
10:44 robotgeek okay, fine. will make the change
10:45 bustacap I think this is issue is now pretty much open-and-shut ->
move on to making both files common across all documentation
10:45 LaserJock do you guys see it? in common/C/
10:45 robotgeek LaserJock: i see it, and will make the change now
10:46 bustacap alright - moving on to the next item..
10:46 bustacap WikiCleanupProposal
10:47 bustacap at the moment the WCP has been moving along quite well
10:48 bustacap I might move through a couple of points in it and where it is
at..
10:48 manicka feedback on the list has been very productive
10:48 bustacap the Wiki Move..
there may need to be a day of the Wiki Team making sure that
10:50 bustacap all of the important docs on the Wiki are categorised in the
Category''Documentation before the wiki move
10:50 bustacap other than that - I cannot see any problems with the
impending wiki move (whenever that happens)
10:50 bustacap any information about the wiki move?
10:51 bustacap there has been a spec put forward about it..
10:52 manicka I believe it was discussed at the last cc, but mdke wasn't
there to clarify the issues
10:52 bustacap yeah, that's why he is going down the spec route rather than
discussing it at CC meetings..
10:52 manicka discussion went round in circles a bit
10:52 bustacap it might even be in Launchpad
10:53 bustacap ok, moving onto Restructuring of the Wiki
10:53 bustacap bit of a shame mdke isn't here
10:53 bustacap but manicka you seem to be happy with mdke's proposal for the
changes to UserDocumentation??
10:54 manicka I like the concise nature of his suggestions
10:54 bustacap yeah, it is a good cleanup
10:54 manicka the frontpage needs to be as simple as possible
10:55 bustacap I can see where he is coming from with his objections to my
"Misc" series of pages
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10:55 manicka yes
10:55 bustacap albeit a temporary solution to the problems whilst
UserDocBeta was being built
10:56 manicka the problem I see is making it happen, there doesn't seem to
be a lot of interest in the wiki
10:56 bustacap yeah, I am getting that feeling as well
10:57 bustacap I find that hard to understand given the usefulness of the
Wiki
10:57 manicka such a large restructure needs a concerted effort
10:57 robotgeek true
10:57 manicka a few people can't pull it off on their own
from a sysadmin perspective - we are in the "google" age of
10:58 bustacap looking for assistance with sysadmin tasks - the Ubuntu Wiki
fits right in with looking for doco on the net
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10:58 manicka agreed
=== robotgeek is still trying to understand the issues :(
10:58 bustacap for sure manicka, but I think a quick restructure and then
some slow and steady work by a few can improve it greatly
10:59 manicka yes
if there isn't enough support by the general Doc-Team, well
10:59 bustacap yourself and I can take it slowly as long as it is supported
(in ideals) by the Doc-Team
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11:00 bustacap I don't want to be working on a project that the majority of
the Doc-Team turn there noses up at..
11:00 manicka yes, agreed
11:00 bustacap that's why I have been trying to engage some dialog about the
issue..
11:00 manicka so our first gioal must be approval of the idea
11:00 manicka the beta I mean
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robotgeek, look at
11:00 bustacap https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiCleanupProposal for a good
introduction to the matter
11:00 robotgeek bustacap: reading it now
11:01 bustacap well I think that the beta may be dead given that mdke has
gone and suggested his model
11:01 bustacap the whole subindexing - however - is not dead
11:01 manicka I was thinking of the long term model
yeah, see my initial opposition to mdke's model was that if
11:02 bustacap we went to his model - we could not go back to the beta model
if everything was ready in the background..
11:03 manicka there's no point putting a lot of effort into a background
model if it won't fly in the long run
11:03 bustacap with his model - a new beta doesn't need to be drafted
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I think the main thing that has come out of my proposals is
11:04 bustacap that there is a need for some general sub-index pages across
all subject areas
and whatever the main page model is - the sub-indexes will
11:05 bustacap greatly help people find doco quicker and give them a really
good understanding of what Ubuntu has to offer
11:05 robotgeek bustacap: +1
11:05 bustacap there needs to be more higher-level simple doco about Ubuntu
and the apps it has
11:05 manicka yes and this would assist with the other goal of attracting
forum people to contribute
11:06 bustacap absolutely
11:06 robotgeek bustacap: for example like the KQuickguide?
11:06 manicka I'd just like to see something happen
manicka, once a conclusion has been reached about the main
11:06 bustacap page model - I will be able to start drafting a recruitment
drive for people from the forums
11:07 bustacap manicka, well once I have a chat with mdke - I will continue
driving the issue
11:07 manicka ok
the problem was that I was not getting any feedback from the
Doc-Team about the work and like have said - it seems that
11:08 bustacap nobody cares about cleaning up the wiki - or like I said -
nobody is saying anything because that don't agree about what
I have proposed
11:08 manicka it's difficult to know either way
11:08 robotgeek bustacap: from me, i just have been too busy with other stuff
11:09 manicka I look at it this way. If you want help with the task I'll
pitch in, but I'm really tired of all the background stuff
11:09 manicka the udsf issues have worn me out somewhat
robotgeek, it is just not about a short guide - it's about
opening people's minds up to all of the possiblities of
Ubuntu apps when they are searching for a specific issue - if
11:11 bustacap somebody is searching for playing MP3s - the may browse on of
the sub-index pages (MultimediaApplications is a good
example) and discover all of the different MP3 players along
with the video players etc... basically look for help in one
subject area and be enli
11:11 bustacap ghtened in so many more :)
11:11 bustacap manicka, that is a fair call, I don't think we need to visit
there..
11:11 manicka no, agreed
11:12 robotgeek bustacap: hmm, i like idea of subpages, Todd has been working
on WifiDocs converted the wireless pages that ways
and as far as the whole joint meeting went - I think there is
11:12 bustacap a really positive attitude from the Ubuntu Forums to wholly
support the Wiki once there is a suitable framework there..
11:13 bustacap yeah, I have liked Todd's work on getting something up and
going..
11:13 manicka yes, a suitable framework is the key...
basically manicka, we need at least another 2-3 people
11:13 bustacap involved in the project with the same committment as you and
I to really get this off the ground..
and as far as I look at the whole doc situation - I think the
11:14 bustacap UDG and KDG are in there final stages of being closed off for
Dapper and the members of the Doc-Team should have some time
to contribute to fixing up the Wiki
11:14 manicka hmm, that may be difficult. Most of the good people on the
forums are working on 'other' projects
11:15 manicka but you never know
11:15 bustacap yeah, I know that - but I am after 2-3 extras from the
Doc-Team initially
11:15 robotgeek i may have time, but i can't commit right now
11:15 manicka so we may see some activity in a few weeks
11:15 robotgeek commit time, i mean
11:16 robotgeek btw, i have some input to provide about our first agenda item
robotgeek, but by commit - I don't mean spending 2 hours
11:16 bustacap every night on it - I just mean that you agree with the
proposals put forward and I include you in any high level
emails/discussions that may arise over the project..
11:17 bustacap robotgeek, I might wrap up the current agenda item anyway and
close off the meeting
11:17 robotgeek bustacap: i'll go thru the whole issue over the weekend and
get in touch with you?
11:17 bustacap sure, drop me an email (check private message)
basically, we could do with an extra 2-3 people committed to
11:18 bustacap this project but either way - mdke's proposal looks good and
I will slowly change the beta to suit
11:19 manicka ok
11:19 bustacap also, I will have a chat with mdke about his proposal and
move it across to UserDocumentationDraft
11:19 manicka great
11:19 bustacap once approved at UserDocumentationDraft - it will replace the
current UserDocumentation
and! I will then attempt to take over the WikiTeam docs as
11:20 bustacap far as cleanup proposals, todo pages, etc to get the ball
rolling..
11:21 manicka sounds like a plan
11:21 bustacap excellent
11:21 robotgeek :)
11:21 bustacap well I think that concludes today's meeting..
11:21 robotgeek holdon
=== bustacap bangs a gavel :D
11:22 bustacap sorry robotgeek, bring up your issue, I am getting a drink of
water and heading to bed - big night last night
LaserJock: the preface.xml in KDG doesn't have all xml
11:22 robotgeek headers . Riddell removed them for something related to
xincludes
11:23 bustacap night/morning all..
11:23 robotgeek bustacap: sure, later
11:23 robotgeek anyways, i could discuss this later. only to tell that i
won't be making a change right now
11:23 robotgeek alrite, later allMeetingLogs/DocTeam_2006-03-03 (last edited 2008-08-06 17:00:53 by localhost)