DocTeam_2006-01-27
11:01 kjcole Showtime?
11:01 LaserJock should be
11:02 mdke yeah, who is around?
11:02 mdke <-- Matthew East
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
=== LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
=== rob is lurking
=== bustacap is present
11:03 mdke cool
=== jeffsch i'm here
11:03 mdke ah hey jeffsch
11:03 mdke let's kick off with your item :)
11:04 jeffsch ok
11:04 mdke agenda is here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
11:04 mdke jeffsch, do you want to go ahead and outline your
proposal?
11:04 jeffsch C is locale for ANSI C programs
11:05 jeffsch doc processing tools don't always understand the C locale
11:05 jeffsch we should use the "en" locale as our default
11:05 bustacap I think the "C" locale extends beyond ANSI C programs..
11:05 jeffsch yeah, into GNOME docs
11:05 bustacap Solaris CDE uses "C" everywhere for it's desktop icons,
etc..
11:06 mdke jeffsch, what are the advantages/disadvantages?
=== robotgeek [n=robotgee@62.240.70.121] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
11:06 bustacap "C" is the old school version of default..
11:06 Mithrandir I'm semi-around, but not part of the docteam. Tollef Fog
Heen
11:06 mdke evening robotgeek, we're just on the first agenda item
=== robotgeek is Venkat Raghavan
=== Burgwork is Corey Burger
11:06 jeffsch advantage is having en for use in processing tools
11:07 Mithrandir C doesn't give you UTF8 support, for instance.
11:07 jeffsch xsltproc doesn't know C locale, but will use en as
fallover
11:07 mdke don't our processing tools use en anyway?
11:07 mdke as fallback?
11:07 jeffsch other tools choke on C locale
11:08 bustacap is there a way to move to it all to "en" and symlink C ->
en ?
11:08 jeffsch mdke: yeah, that's what those warnings are when building
docs
11:08 bustacap that's the standard practice..
11:08 bustacap that should cover both basis..
11:08 jeffsch svn can't do symlinks, iirc
11:08 bustacap haha yeah..
11:08 mdke so the disadvantages?
11:08 bustacap I was talking about when it is installed..
Are there any advantages to "C" (assuming one has control
11:09 kjcole over the whole universe of docs -- i.e. not worrying
about what Solaris or anyone else does)?
11:09 Mithrandir kjcole: it's a fallback which any language will fall back
to if their normal language/locale isn't available.
11:10 mdke if we move to en, do we lose that fallback?
11:10 jeffsch a C program uses the C locale until it calls setlocale()
11:10 jeffsch mdke: no
11:10 mdke ok, so any disadvantages you know?
11:10 jeffsch yeah, the transition from one to the other
11:11 mdke shoot
11:11 mdke what does it take?
11:11 jeffsch mostly just changing C to en everywhere it occurs
it seems slightly unclear to me what exactly do you mean
11:11 Mithrandir by moving from C to en. Do you mean changing the default
language code of the English documentation from C to en
or something else?
11:11 jeffsch including in the omf files
11:11 Mithrandir (like, changing the LANG setting in the build
environment)
11:12 jeffsch Mithrandir: changing <book lang="C">
11:12 jeffsch to <book lang="en">
11:12 Mithrandir so the former, then.
11:12 jeffsch yeah
11:13 robotgeek a bash script can do that?
11:13 mdke and the place the docs are installed would have to change
too?
11:13 jeffsch yeah, anything in a C folder would be in an en folder
11:14 Mithrandir you'd have to make sure that "en" would be fallen back to
if localised docs weren't available.
11:14 bustacap what are the processing tools that are disadvantaged by
the current setup?
11:15 jeffsch xsltproc shows a warning that it does not understand C,
and is using en instead
11:15 jeffsch the last time i used java tools, (about a year ago) they
choked on C locale
I have <!ENTITY language "en"> and <book
11:15 LaserJock lang="&language;"> in the packaging guide. Is that not C
then?
11:15 jeffsch &language resolves to C in global.ent
11:16 LaserJock so why is <!ENTITY language "en"> there?
11:16 jeffsch dunno
11:16 LaserJock I just stole it from the server guide I think
11:16 mdke jeffsch, how long do you estimate the transition would
take, and do you envisage doing it before dapper?
11:17 jeffsch it took me about an hour to test it on desktop guide and
server guide on my wc
11:17 jeffsch included changing and building, and fixing places i
forgot
11:17 mdke did you build a package and test?
11:18 jeffsch no
11:18 mdke would there be likely to be any problems?
11:18 jeffsch scrollkeeper omf files would need to be changed
11:18 mdke yes, and debian/install
11:18 mdke Mithrandir, any idea if this would produce bugs? can we
go ahead and do it safely pre-dapper you think?
11:19 mdke dholbach, your opinion too would be awesome, if you are
around
11:19 jeffsch it should be similar to adding anyother locale such as fr
11:19 Mithrandir mdke: I don't know scrollkeeper well enough. Try it on a
localised install and see what blows up?
11:19 mdke ok
11:20 mdke for me, it sounds fine, if jeffsch can test it a little
bit and commit, no problems here
11:20 bustacap the "C" fallback should be the main thing to test
11:20 mdke yeah
ok, i'll commit some stuff in the next day or so... i'll
11:21 jeffsch keep the images in the C folder though to keep the
bandwith impact lower
11:21 mdke svn mv shouldn't impact on bandwidth i don't think
11:22 mdke jeffsch, could you try a package before committing?
11:22 jeffsch i was thinking having the two side by side for testing
11:22 mdke ah
11:22 jeffsch i would have to learn packaging, so it would take another
day or so, if i find the time
11:22 Mithrandir if you move stuff, move it properly and don't care about
bandwidth impact.
11:23 jeffsch ok
11:23 mdke jeffsch, just look in debian/install and change the
values, it's pretty obvious
this might need to be fixed by somebody who comes along
11:23 Mithrandir in a year or two and the bandwidth you save today will
then just cause headaches then.
11:23 jeffsch yeah
11:24 mdke ok cool
11:24 mdke any more on this item?
11:25 jeffsch nope. i'll test and commit and see what happens
11:25 mdke great
11:25 mdke next item is the rearranging of the desktopguide meeting
11:26 jeffsch hopefully by monday
11:26 mdke i was hoping for a meeting on the desktopguide by those
who are likely to contribute
11:27 mdke Madpilot isn't here right now
11:27 mdke perhaps we can coordinate a quick meeting via the mailing
list?
11:27 bustacap I am looking at filling in a few of the TODO sections..
11:27 robotgeek does it count for the Kubuntu too, right?
11:27 mdke robotgeek, sure
11:28 robotgeek oaky, if the rest of the ppl aren't here, it may be best
to do this by mailing list/launchpad poll
11:28 bustacap yep
11:28 mdke last item then, I think
11:28 robotgeek scratch the poll, it's only going to be 5 ppl or so :)
11:28 mdke over to you bustacap
11:29 bustacap mdke, I am not too sure if there are many UDSF folk in
the room..
11:29 robotgeek manicka ping
11:29 bustacap it was a little short notice..
11:29 mdke was there something you wanted to raise anyhow?
11:29 bustacap yeah sure..
at the 'next' meeting, we talk with some senior members
11:30 bustacap of UDSF and talk about getting new help documents
included into the offical docs rather than being posted
in the forums..
11:31 bustacap new HowTo can be originally created into the Wiki
11:31 bustacap and new FAQs could be inserted into the starter guide..
11:31 bustacap the HowTos should be the easier of the two..
11:32 bustacap leaving the forum as a pure helpdesk service
11:32 bustacap which it is good at
11:32 mdke ok that is quite a complicated discussion. You'll need to
include the forum administrators
11:32 bustacap yeah..
11:32 bustacap most of the UDSF team are the forum admins, but yes we do
need them as well..
11:32 LaserJock do the UDSF guys want to do that?
11:32 mdke bustacap, no the admins are different
11:33 bustacap LaserJock, they are all for copying existing docs into
the wiki (or somebody else copying)
11:33 bustacap but I am talking about new docs..
=== bshumate [n=bshumate@ubuntu/member/bshumate] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
11:34 bustacap the existing docs would take a long time..
LaserJock, i think it will be a long road. The first road
11:34 mdke is trying to convince the wiki and UDSF to merge, let
alone get them to scrap the howto section in the forum
11:34 mdke but it would be great to have the wiki and forums
complementing each other
11:34 LaserJock that's what I'm talking about. I didn't get the
impression that they were closing the UDSF or anything
11:34 mdke no, indeed
the wiki is already filled with great info, I feel that
11:35 bustacap there could be already great amounts of unneccessary
duplication
11:35 Burgwork USDF is mostly a lost cause
11:35 LaserJock It sounded more like the doc team was welcome to take
there info
11:35 Burgwork we need to publicize the wiki more
11:35 bustacap I agree on the need to promote the wiki much more in the
forums
11:35 robotgeek +1
that's where my main point is stemming from - there is
11:36 bustacap very little mention of the wikis in forum posts from the
"helpdesk teams"
11:36 bustacap the guys who answer the most questions..
11:36 robotgeek bustacap: i think azz on the forums mentioned that
11:36 mdke there is a "how to post to the wiki" guide as a sticky in
the howto section
11:37 bustacap FYI, an invite was sent out to have the UDSF guys in
attendance for this meeting..
11:37 Burgwork I spoke to them extensively after the last CC meeting
11:37 bustacap what was the outcome Burgwork?
11:38 Burgwork we agreed to disagree about goals and left it at that
I haven't spent much time in the forums. Any sense of
11:38 kjcole the audience percentage that understands the "living"
nature of the wikis?
11:38 Burgwork kjcole, most are probably not even aware of the wiki
11:38 mdke bustacap, there is a bug link at the top
11:38 mdke bug/big
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11:39 kjcole Burgwork, I meant the concept, not any specific wiki.
11:39 mdke bustacap/burgwork
11:39 Burgwork mdke, links to not make awareness
11:39 mdke Burgwork, no, unless people click. But sometimes they do
11:39 Burgwork kjcole, first they have to aware it exists, and then we
can start thinking about having them edit it
I spoke to manicka at length last night as well Burgwork,
11:40 bustacap but I think there needs to be a set meeting with fair
numbers of the ubuntu-doc team, the forum admins and the
UDSF team instead of 1-on-3 conversations..
11:40 rob sorry, what is UDSF?
11:40 mdke bustacap, ok you can take the lead on organising it
11:40 mdke rob, the gwos wiki
11:40 rob ah
=== rob reserves comment
11:41 bustacap mdke, yes, they have a wiki link to make the forums blend
in with the rest of the official ubuntu pages..
The few topics that I've looked at in the forum often end
11:41 kjcole up being umpteen screens worth of corrections and updates
to "good" answers (along with lots of little "Thank you.
It worked." responses.)
11:41 kjcole They'd really benefit from being wiki'd.
11:41 bustacap kjcole, I like seeing 'thank you' and 'it worked' in
forums when I am searching for a solution
11:42 bustacap yes, wikis for documentation - forums for help
11:42 mdke i like those wiki pages that say "discuss this guide
[forumlink here] "
11:42 bustacap mdke ++
11:42 kjcole bustacap, yeah, it's nice. I wasn't saying get rid of
that.
11:43 bustacap that should be used more often in the more important wiki
pages
11:43 bustacap I will look at trying to organise a meeting between the
three interested parties in the near future..
11:43 mdke ok to draw some conclusions, bustacap, you're going to
organise a meeting?
11:43 mdke cool
11:43 bustacap I don't know who to contact for the forum administrators
11:44 mdke bustacap, you can find them on the forum
11:44 bustacap I mean the active senior admins..
11:44 mdke there is a list
11:44 robotgeek could we have a wiki article discussion section on the
forums?
11:45 bustacap "View Forum Leaders"
11:45 mdke some kinda of automatic thing would be nice, in the
future
11:45 bustacap hah, must have missed that link last night..
11:45 Burgwork I worry about splitting the forums up too much
one thing that somewhat bugs me (and maybe it's
11:46 LaserJock understandable) is that some of the forum admin/mods put
UDSF in there signatures but not the Ubuntu wiki
I just seems to me that there isn't that much support for
11:47 LaserJock the Ubuntu wiki from within the forums and I don't
understand why
11:47 robotgeek LaserJock: the explanation to that apparently is that
they know the answer on UDSF, but not in the Ubuntu wiki
11:47 LaserJock robotgeek: but those are just general advertisements
basically
11:47 mdke there are some social barriers that we can eventually
hope to break down
11:47 bustacap Burgwork, what do you mean by splitting up?
11:48 Burgwork bustacap, having many small forums is bad and balkanizes
where people look for help
11:48 mdke yeah, a "wiki article" section wouldn't work I don't
think
yes, there seems to be a breakaway from the official
11:48 bustacap community, which is bad, we don't want to become another
RedHat..
11:49 Burgwork there are a number of issues with the forums divide and
this is just one manifestation
11:49 mdke absolutely
11:49 bustacap sure
11:49 mdke I don't think we can solve it, but meetings can't hurt
=== Burgwork is busy working through another with the CC
yes, mdke, just making some progress and airing any
11:50 bustacap issues with all major players present together in the
same room should be a good start
11:50 robotgeek we don't really need a section, i guess. Wiki:WikiWord or
something referencing back to the wiki would work
11:50 mdke ok, I'm off to bed now
11:50 bustacap sweet, thanks mdke
11:50 robotgeek later mdke
=== jeffsch [n=jeff@216.210.98.99] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["gone]
=== bustacap [n=bustacap@203-206-46-153.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left
#ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
before I go, Burgwork and me and henrik have worked on
11:51 mdke the BetterWikiDocs spec, please feel free to have a look
and comment
11:52 robotgeek it is very nice, aesthetically :)
11:53 mdke ok -> bedMeetingLogs/DocTeam_2006-01-27 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:32:32 by localhost)