Accessibility_2005-12-21
Summary
Jason Grieves
- 1.Low Vision/Gnome-mag update
- Luke, Status of new gnome-mag packages?
- Full Screen Magnification Review. I need more testers!
- Firefox Magnification improving!
- Accessibility Documentation
- Wikified, but improvements needed! Assigning to document
- Navigation on Wiki
- Awesome job on the Wiki, but there are some places were "Navigation" is at the bottom. Am I the only one missing these when trying to find locations? Can we throw them at top also, or would that clutter things?
Henrik Nilsen Omma
- Test Testing
- Please have a look at Accessibility/Testing and give feedback on the general concept and feel free to add more detail
- If this seems OK to most people, I will post a request for testing volunteers on some mailing lists and forums
- Ubuntu Express update
- Latest plan at UbuntuExpress/GnomeUserInterface/Accessibility
Log
07:59 TheMuso Hey all.
07:59 dholbach hellas!
08:00 dholbach I suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-)
08:00 TheMuso Yeah.
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
08:01 kjcole Hi. ;-)
=== TheMuso checks email while he waits. It is much easier getting up early for something like this.
=== ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089F92C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:02 kjcole Hi ogra.
08:03 linbetwin hello all!
=== hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:04 dholbach hey linbetwin, hno73
08:04 TheMuso hno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks
08:04 hno73 hey dholbach
08:05 linbetwin hello, dholbach!
08:06 sivang hi all
08:06 sivang what meeting is that?
08:06 sivang ah , ally
08:06 sivang cool
=== sivang is having hard time following the meetings with busy dayjob schedule, sorry
08:07 kjcole a11y 00ps ;-) (If you didn't get it, never mind.)
08:08 linbetwin i always wondered why a11y for accessibility
08:08 kjcole sivang, I know the feeling. I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't
sure which one. Just that my alarm said "go". ;-)
08:09 sivang kjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well
08:09 dholbach linbetwin: a<eleven letters>y
08:09 TheMuso Ok, so I think everybody is here...
08:09 linbetwin dholbach: thanks
=== dholbach searches the Agenda on the wiki
08:10 dholbach https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
08:11 hno73 Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done
since last meeting
08:11 dholbach jgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda?
08:11 dholbach yeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list
08:11 TheMuso Cool!
08:11 dholbach we're more and more taking off :-)
=== crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:12 dholbach maybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that
make sense?
08:13 hno73 yeah, I might have leave early as well
08:13 hno73 Did anyone look at the testing plans?
=== dholbach is honest and has a look *now* :)
=== TheMuso skimmed them.
08:14 hno73 We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews
08:14 hno73 Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it
08:14 dholbach i'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7) above the table
08:15 TheMuso dholbach: I agree.
08:15 dholbach i meant v1-v3, m1-m3
08:16 TheMuso As for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up.
08:16 hno73 kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought
that might need to be done in a different way
08:16 TheMuso It is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc.
08:16 hno73 kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out
08:17 hno73 TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off
08:17 hno73 also useful
08:17 kjcole hno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start
wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his).
08:17 TheMuso kjcole: Which one?
=== TheMuso must start working through some of these and commenting on them.
08:18 hno73 kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of
sound to convey information on the desktop
08:19 hno73 but rather that the issues are more subtle
08:19 kjcole TheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete. Please put [URL] in
the wiki."
08:19 hno73 I think that was Jason's page
08:20 kjcole TheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation
08:20 TheMuso Yeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it.
08:20 kjcole TheMuso: From
http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt
08:21 TheMuso Yeah not mine.
08:21 hno73 Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to
start doing testing and then filing bugs
08:21 dholbach yeah
08:22 dholbach and i think your page is a good start
08:22 hno73 including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox
08:22 hno73 I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla
hno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds... If
08:23 kjcole there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat
helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary.
08:23 hno73 Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help
with testing
08:23 jgrieves sorry all had a family emerg.
08:23 jgrieves greetings!
08:23 dholbach yeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as
we can
08:23 hno73 kjcole: right
08:24 hno73 dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now
08:24 dholbach yeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly
08:24 TheMuso jgrieves: Hey
08:25 jgrieves alright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification
hno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes,
08:25 kjcole different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with
sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language.
08:25 jgrieves it was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead
08:25 dholbach jsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from
somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list)
08:26 jgrieves TheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine
08:27 TheMuso Right.
08:27 linbetwin jgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved?
08:27 jgrieves TheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because
the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper
08:28 hno73 dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so
08:28 hno73 :)
08:28 jgrieves linbetwin yep, I built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another
problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes
08:28 dholbach hno73: wow, that's ambitious :)
08:28 jgrieves linbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see
that in Dapper
08:28 hno73 dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ?
08:29 linbetwin jgrieves: great!
08:29 dholbach yeah, that was super
08:29 hno73 jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well
08:29 hno73 And I have a couple in the pipeline
08:30 jgrieves hno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left
08:30 dholbach it'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream
08:30 hno73 I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well
08:30 hno73 jgrieves: yeah it looks good
08:31 jgrieves hno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :)
08:31 hno73 :)
08:31 hno73 So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us
08:32 jgrieves hno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I think this
will be a big story for us if we do it well
08:32 TheMuso hno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs?
08:32 hno73 how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD?
08:32 TheMuso They will need to be very well explained.
08:32 TheMuso Even then I am not sure.
08:32 hno73 TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon
08:33 jgrieves hno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical
08:33 crimsun something less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps
08:33 hno73 the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD
cover perhaps
08:34 TheMuso Yeah that could work.
08:34 hno73 if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format
08:34 hno73 like braille even
08:34 jgrieves we thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's?
08:34 jgrieves hno73: great minds think alike :)
08:34 hno73 :)
08:35 kjcole Oops. Minor fires here at the office. I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of
this in the logs. Sorry 'bout that.
08:35 hno73 once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware
08:35 jgrieves https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for
helping me get most of this straightend up
08:36 jgrieves hno73 i think your right. Once aware it seems pretty simplistic
08:36 hno73 Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE
08:36 hno73 cool
08:36 hno73 ok, I'm done with my points
08:36 hno73 jgrieves: you hade some otems?
08:36 TheMuso For those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of
speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought.
08:36 hno73 items
the documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can
08:37 jgrieves definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with
increasing content
08:37 hno73 Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel
08:37 TheMuso I can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a
braille device, I am unable to help regarding that.
08:37 hno73 which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly
08:37 jgrieves TheMuso progress on the /Speakup page?
08:38 TheMuso jgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel.
08:38 hno73 jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers
=== TheMuso intends to fetch an mm tree later today to have a look at what version is there.
08:38 jgrieves TheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page
08:39 hno73 so some testing from our side would be great
08:39 TheMuso Indeed.
08:39 jgrieves are our kernel people sounding optomistic?
08:39 TheMuso I may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it.
08:40 hno73 jgrieves: yes indeed
08:40 TheMuso jgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it
doesn't really, it should be fine.
08:40 hno73 though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :)
08:40 jgrieves hno73: great
08:40 TheMuso I would be happy to give it a workout.
08:40 hno73 I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional
08:40 jgrieves I can throw it on a virtual machine
08:40 TheMuso I will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those
who want to try it out.
08:41 jgrieves TheMuso great
08:41 hno73 Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two
=== TheMuso makes his way to his local kernel.org mirror.
08:42 jgrieves TheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions,
anybody else?
08:42 jgrieves TheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they
work,
08:42 hno73 jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before
08:43 jgrieves hno73 definitely. Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is
written, I want it to be easy to follow
08:43 hno73 Has anyone tried it on two acreens?
08:43 jgrieves and eventually scripted
08:43 hno73 jgrieves: cool, will do
08:43 TheMuso I haven't as I only have one monitor here.
08:43 hno73 awesome :)
08:44 jgrieves hno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :)
08:44 hno73 hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :)
08:45 hno73 but the 19" ones are good value IMO :)
08:45 TheMuso Indeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day.
=== hno73 has one, and is glad as I spend a lot of time in front of it
08:46 jgrieves so where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper
yet?
08:46 hno73 jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can
fix that
08:47 jgrieves hno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer,
but some seem to be at top, others at bottom
=== hno73 did an install of dapper which failed to get net access. will try again
08:47 hno73 jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that
08:48 TheMuso jgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he
encountered something weird.
08:48 TheMuso dholbach: Any progress?
08:48 hno73 btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu
08:48 jgrieves TheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both
of ours seems to be fine
08:48 hno73 using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes
08:49 hno73 it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo
08:49 hno73 but it's still a bit broken
08:49 jgrieves View > Page Style, very cool!!
08:49 hno73 I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis
08:50 hno73 (there will be slightly fewer options though)
08:50 jgrieves i like that on the fly action :)
08:50 hno73 I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:50 jgrieves TheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it
08:51 hno73 So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro
08:51 hno73 at the very least :)
08:51 TheMuso http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20320
08:51 jgrieves hno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :)
08:52 jgrieves TheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road
08:52 hno73 getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from
relevant places
08:52 jgrieves hno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers? TheMuso?
08:53 TheMuso jgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages
though.
08:53 kjcole Back.
08:53 hno73 jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good
08:53 hno73 It's quite hard to fix though :(
08:53 jgrieves TheMuso: cool. have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus?
08:54 hno73 I'll probably need to work with upstream on that
08:54 jgrieves my guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in
Windows with Jaws/WindowWise
08:54 TheMuso jgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out. Haven't tried with
gnopernicus due to the firefox support being crap. Haven't tried with 1.5 yet.
=== lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:54 jgrieves TheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website
coding
08:55 TheMuso jgrieves: What about speech?
08:55 jgrieves TheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or
that really weird...control.thingy they have
=== hno73 is getting visitors from overseas now, so I'll have to run ...
08:55 TheMuso With carrot browsing mode?
08:55 jgrieves TheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc
08:55 TheMuso hno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas.
08:55 hno73 Thanks everyone :)
08:55 jgrieves hno73: merry Christmas! did u email me?
08:55 TheMuso We will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so.
08:56 hno73 jgrieves: earlier today yes
08:56 jgrieves hno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but
thanks! that is exactly what i wanted
08:56 jgrieves going into draft number 2
08:56 jgrieves so i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve
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08:57 jgrieves not the most active discussion today huh? were is Daniel?
08:57 TheMuso Good question.
08:57 TheMuso PhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier?
08:58 PhantomsDad TheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to.
08:58 TheMuso We have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been
considering testing the KDE accessibility tools.
08:58 TheMuso hmmm ok.
08:58 PhantomsDad The mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not
available.
=== bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:59 PhantomsDad Gunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor.
08:59 PhantomsDad He must defend his thesis before it can be released.
08:59 jgrieves PhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE?
=== TheMuso wonders why most things have to depend on academia.
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08:59 PhantomsDad Gunnar demoed it at aKademy. I'll get the link..
09:00 jgrieves i know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some
apps dont even work with that...
=== TheMuso must really poke the GNOME folks about speech-dispatcher.
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09:01 jgrieves there is the man!
09:01 dholbach i flew out the net, sorry :-(
09:01 dholbach the connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky
09:02 jgrieves i sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :)
09:02 TheMuso hahaha.
09:02 TheMuso dholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility
project.
09:02 dholbach oh nice
09:02 TheMuso Have you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff.
09:02 dholbach hello PhantomsDad
09:03 PhantomsDad hello
09:03 dholbach what were you talking about in the time, when i was away?
09:03 TheMuso Since this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this
elsewhere?
09:03 dholbach i'll read the irclog
09:03 TheMuso dholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs.
09:03 PhantomsDad Here's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/
http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users
09:04 jgrieves cool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility
09:05 TheMuso jgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching.
09:05 TheMuso Particularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher)
09:05 jgrieves TheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever
made the switch because of lack of accessibility
09:06 linbetwin jgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros
09:06 jgrieves TheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher?
09:06 jgrieves linbetwin: how well did it keep focus?
09:06 TheMuso jgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a
really good idea.
09:06 jgrieves TheMuso: link on information? I haven't really heard of it before
09:07 linbetwin jgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering
the magnified area (no black blocks)
speech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to
09:07 TheMuso be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are
available.
09:08 jgrieves PhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page?
09:08 jgrieves TheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now
09:08 TheMuso jgrieves: Indeed.
09:08 jgrieves linbetwin: does it use composite?
09:08 TheMuso I am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver
anywhere.
09:09 linbetwin jgrieves: i don't know what composite is
09:09 jgrieves TheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know
09:09 jgrieves linbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major
back-end
09:09 TheMuso jgrieves: I might have to.
09:10 jgrieves TheMuso: or build your own :)
09:10 linbetwin jgrieves: i really don't know
09:11 linbetwin but the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag
09:11 linbetwin but it can't be docked to the edge of the screen
09:12 jgrieves linbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work
environemtn
09:12 linbetwin and it has a superfluous title bar
09:12 jgrieves linbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds
actually works pretty well
09:13 jgrieves https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview
Anyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with
09:13 TheMuso me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more.
:)
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09:14 linbetwin jgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a
window at the lower bottom of the screen
09:14 jgrieves TheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with
you hehe
09:15 jgrieves linbetwin: cool, whatever works for you. i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used
09:15 jgrieves linbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis
09:15 jgrieves TheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug
09:16 jgrieves TheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these
in dapper
09:17 jgrieves TheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation. I would love
your input in the speech part, especially with the console
09:17 jgrieves TheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and
better details
09:18 linbetwin jgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag?
09:18 jgrieves linbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle
09:19 linbetwin jgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that
something that can be easily fixed?
09:20 jgrieves linbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps?
09:21 jgrieves linbetwin: before running a gtk app, run
09:21 jgrieves export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge
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then run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized"
09:21 jgrieves everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the
AT
09:23 linbetwin for ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work
09:23 jgrieves yep
09:24 linbetwin in FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor
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09:25 jgrieves yeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS?
09:25 kjcole Time for some non-Ubuntu work. Bye...
09:25 linbetwin no, i hope to do that this weekend
09:26 linbetwin bye, kjcole
09:26 jgrieves linbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki
09:26 jgrieves i am trying to follow firefox closely
09:26 jgrieves the sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused
09:26 linbetwin ok
09:27 jgrieves ok lunch for me! see ya
09:28 linbetwin bon appetit! see ya!
09:29 jgrieves hha thanksMeetingLogs/Accessibility_2005-12-21 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:32:47 by localhost)