20060301
Summary
- The accessibility profiles have been implemented. We need to finalize the various settings for the profiles, such as magnification window placement, the amount of magnification, speech rate, etc.
- Gok remedies - Gok brings up a warning about not being able to do pointer grabs without a modified X config. Determine whether anybody has found a way to get rid of it, or alternatively, look at how easy or difficult this may be to implement properly.
- Get the necessary packages onto the live CD ASAP. Discuss further what was brought up on the list as well as the gnome lists about flite compared to festival and disk space, as the devs of the gnome-speech speech-dispatcher driver seem to be discouraging its mainstream use at this time.
The TODO wiki page located at [WWW] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/TODO needs cleaning up and resorting, as it hasn't been updated since December, and a lot has happened between now and then.
- Making the Ubuntu CD's Accessible - We need a "dimple" or some other braille like marking on at least one of the Ubuntu CD's so that people know which one they have. [cjs on behalf of manoeuvre.org]
Log
08:00 heno Hello all :)
08:00 TheMuso Hey heno.
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08:01 heno Hi TheMuso. Thanks for organising the aganda and stuff
08:01 heno and generally holding the fort :)
08:01 dholbach Hey! :)
08:01 heno dholbach: ! how was your weekend ? ;)
08:02 dholbach Thanks heno - had a nice Saturday, with wandering through Berlin and a loooong party in the
evening - Sunday just some bits of working and mostly recovering :)
08:02 dholbach How were your weekend?
08:02 dholbach weekends :)
08:03 heno nice thanks, had the place to myself. Did some good design work on TheOpenCD
08:03 heno (I was reffering to your missed meeting though)
08:03 dholbach Nice.
08:03 dholbach Yeah, I thought so. :-)
08:03 heno It's good to make those contacts though
08:04 dholbach well, I tried to gather up with the KDE a11y and usability folks (who met in Berlin)
08:04 TheMuso Nice.
08:04 heno We've just been in touch with some KDE access people
08:04 heno all good stuff
08:04 dholbach after I got there, I tried all the bells and doors, but they didn't hear me on the 4th floor
(or wherever they were)
08:04 TheMuso I have also been talking on and off to Garry in the #kde-accessibility channel recently. He has
been following what we are doing with great interest.
08:04 dholbach so I took my laptop the Ubuntu CDs and everything else to a nice walk through Berlin. .-)
08:05 dholbach But I'll meet with Ellen soon to catch up with.
08:05 TheMuso he has said on several occasions that KDE doesn't yet have the same as what GNOME has to offer
in terms of accessibility.
08:05 Riddell heno: just remembered, I've not replied to your e-mail
08:05 dholbach hey Riddell
08:05 heno Riddell: np. What do you think?
08:06 Riddell heno: are you talking about a separate CD or an option on the live or install CD at boot time?
08:06 heno wil we get some Kubuntu AT love this release? :)
08:06 Riddell "AT"?
08:06 dholbach accessibility technology?
08:06 heno Assistive Technology
08:06 dholbach oh well
08:06 dholbach good enough for a non-native speaker ;)
08:07 heno I ws thinking as boot feature. Do you ship Kmag?
08:07 Riddell kdeaccessibility is in universe
08:07 heno ah, ok
08:08 Riddell but that can be fixed of course
08:08 dholbach :-D
08:08 TheMuso heno: We could still offer a derivative.
08:08 TheMuso Unless kdeaccessibility is promoted in the meantime.
08:08 heno yep
08:08 heno ok, so where are we with the current game plan?
08:08 TheMuso Riddell: The kubuntu live CD uses the same overall infrastructure as the Ubuntu one right?
08:09 TheMuso Have you looked at the agenda?
08:09 TheMuso https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
08:09 heno yep, point 1
08:09 heno access profiles
08:09 Riddell TheMuso: yes
08:09 heno well done on getting those sorted, thanks :)
08:10 heno about the magnification, 8x sounds huge
08:10 heno but I'm no expert on that
Well it actually wouldn't be too difficult to set up kubuntu profiles for accessibility from
08:10 TheMuso the same casper script if there was a way to identify what CD we are using, and once I knew how
to modify/set KDE configuration files.
08:10 heno don't you end up scrolling sideways alot?
08:11 TheMuso I really wish others were here to give their opinion, as I haven't as yet received any email.
=== TheMuso jumps to the ubuntu-a11y mailbox.
08:11 dholbach yeah
08:11 TheMuso No, nothing.
08:11 heno So we just make a decision and go with it I think
08:11 TheMuso Yeah.
08:12 heno That small detail can be changed after feedback
08:12 dholbach TheMuso: casper uses the packages on livecd file system - so from there it should be easy to
judge wether we're in ubuntu or kubuntu land
08:12 heno I would vote for 4x ...
08:12 TheMuso dholbach: Very true. Check for kubuntu-desktop for example.
08:12 dholbach TheMuso: or we can test for binaries we need
08:12 TheMuso heno: Ok will make a note of it.
08:12 heno The placement worries me more though. It seems to assume a certain screen rez
08:12 dholbach i have unfortunately not much of an opinion on the default settings
08:13 TheMuso I don't know how else we can work that
08:13 heno how would that work on a smaller screen?
08:13 TheMuso As the default placement IMO is crazy.
08:13 heno I guess you would still get something
08:13 heno agreed
08:13 TheMuso Yeah.
08:13 dholbach we could ask on the gnome a11y list
08:13 heno A larger screen should be no problem, just less optimal
08:13 heno dholbach: good idea
08:14 dholbach although i'm not entirely convinced they ship the best they can think of as a default already
08:14 TheMuso dholbach: Yeah, as we will be patching these gconf settings into the package anyway.
08:14 TheMuso dholbach: Neither do I.
08:14 heno I still need to thank them all for the detailed replies
08:14 dholbach TheMuso: yeah, if we have better defaults no need to change casper - we can change that in the
packages directly
08:14 dholbach heno: yeah, that was great
08:15 TheMuso dholbach: Yeah. The only thing the script for casper should do is turn on or off the ke
settings that make things available or not when GNOME starts.
08:15 heno OK, so we'll just pick the position setting in your mail and call that settled ?
08:15 TheMuso Yep. We still have time to test so we can hopefully get feedback.
08:15 dholbach yes
08:15 heno ok, point 2?
08:16 heno I guess that's an upstream bug really
08:16 TheMuso hmmm
08:16 dholbach *nod*
08:16 heno they need to get used to the idea of fixing that
08:16 dholbach at least we could ask for pointers
08:16 dholbach :)))
08:16 TheMuso No pun intended right? :)
08:16 heno I still havent 100% understood the problem
08:16 TheMuso Me neither.
08:17 TheMuso Something to do with gok getting more direct hardware access to the mouse.
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08:17 heno Gok just needs more testing and exposure generally which we will hopefully provide
08:17 TheMuso Yeah.
08:18 heno Has anyone else experienced my panel crashing bug?
08:18 heno I've asked other random people to test on dapper
08:18 TheMuso heno: I will be totally honest and say that I haven't played with GOK AT ALL>
08:18 TheMuso LATELY
08:18 heno but so far it works for everyone else
08:19 dholbach i guess that was the at-spi / gail changes that made it work again
08:19 heno it's a quick test: just install and start somethinmg from the gnome panel while gok is running
08:19 TheMuso Righto.
08:19 heno if nothing crashes you're ok
=== TheMuso flicks over to oher box to try.
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08:20 heno I've not tested it today after the latest updates
08:20 heno anyway, it doesn't look like a showstopper for us
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08:21 dholbach i seem safe
08:21 heno works for most and doesn't get in anyones way
08:21 TheMuso ok
08:22 TheMuso Nice to see GNOME is killing its processes properly now. :)
08:23 sorush20 so what are you guys trying to make more accessible?
08:23 heno So I guess the conclusion on GOK is that it works acceptibly now
08:23 dholbach sorush20: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda is our agenda
08:23 TheMuso So if it is just a matter of running something from the panel while GOK is running, there seems
to be no problem. I haven't updated today either.
08:24 dholbach sorush20: we're discussing point 2 atm
08:24 heno and if we have time, enenergy and brains to make it better for dapper we will
08:24 heno but it can go in as it is
08:24 TheMuso Yeah.
08:25 heno Cool. I might be I have funky hardware or that a reinstall would fix it
08:25 heno I'll try it on the Live CD too when it turns up there
08:25 heno Great! point 3?
08:26 heno Is there somewhere we can see the packages currently on the live cd?
08:26 heno germinate something or other?
08:26 TheMuso heno: Yes there is. Give me a sec.
08:26 ogra heno, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/live
08:27 ogra and http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/dapper/desktop
08:27 heno ogra: thanks. and hello :)
08:27 TheMuso Thanks ogra.
08:27 ogra (live contains desktop)
08:27 heno ogra: are you absorbing all these cool new AT features into Edubuntu?
08:28 ogra not yet
08:28 ogra i have massive space probs
08:28 TheMuso So it seems that the packages we need are not there yet.
08:28 dholbach we really need to know how much all these packages will take
08:28 heno ah, ok
08:28 ogra (cat include the example content)
08:28 TheMuso I found the same when checking one of the dalies the other day.
08:28 heno dholbach: yeah, I'm still in the dark on that
08:28 ogra *cant
08:29 heno ogra: hm, shame
08:29 ogra yup
08:29 dholbach ogra: it's just 8,7M :)
08:29 heno ogra: are you carrying the winfoss?
08:29 heno that will shrink this time
08:29 ogra dholbach, i dont even have 1M free
08:29 ogra heno, nope
08:29 ogra only edubuntu
08:29 dholbach ogra: throw away openoffice and add the accessibility stuff
08:30 heno I'm making some unilateral cuts :)
08:30 ogra and as long as we ship kdeedu we wont have space
08:30 heno makes sense
08:30 ogra dholbach, nope, i'll replace the kde stuff in dapper+1
08:30 heno replace OOo with koffice?
08:30 sorush20 I can't even start gok
08:31 heno sorush20: have you installed at-spi and restarted the X session?
08:31 heno sorush20: try starting it from the command line
08:31 heno see if you get any errors there
08:32 sorush20 heno: shouldn't that be part of the dependency that needes to be installed.. I get the error
that can't find registery..
08:32 heno sorush20: it should yes
08:32 dholbach sorush20: could you file a bug about that and include which version of ubuntu you use?
08:32 sorush20 its running now thanks.. but at-spi sould be installed with it..
08:33 sorush20 oka
08:33 dholbach thanks
08:33 heno brb
08:33 TheMuso I will see if I can chace up the total size of packages needing to be installed.
08:33 dholbach that'd make it easier to start a disciussion
08:34 sorush20 what packages are you guys talking about ... and will there be a gui fo me to just check box
the assistive stuff or will there be a blue screen?
08:35 TheMuso Good old speakup. Managed to cause a bit of a kernel oops of some sort when trying to press
several keys at once or close to each other.
08:35 TheMuso An now on another machine while I wait for that box to reboot. :)
08:36 sorush20 brrb
08:36 heno sorush20: a black screen actually:
http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/screenshots/dapper/flight4/gfxboot-big.png
08:37 heno and
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=AT-boot-menu.png
08:37 sorush20 heno: so it hasn't changed.. that is bad... there should be something similar to xp
installation where you can select extra stuff like a gui..
08:38 heno sorush20: actually our solution is better than the XP one
08:39 heno youb select this technology at the very first screen and off you go
08:39 dholbach it does the right thing for you
08:40 heno I've seen some shots of the vista installer though and that's looking strong on this
08:40 heno so they're catching up :)
08:40 heno dholbach: the Live boot
08:40 TheMuso heno: It won't be accessible AFAIK.
I guess you have a point.. although I think you would agree that it would be better if there
08:40 sorush20 were some icons.. like a disabled wheel chair.. stuff. like that to make it more visually
enhanced..
08:40 heno I tried a live CD a few days ago, but I got no boiot at all then
08:40 TheMuso No good for us people with vision impairements.
08:41 TheMuso heno: I don't even think my casper stuff is on the live CD yet.
08:41 heno Ah, the wheelchair picture is therrible! :)
08:41 TheMuso Mithrandir only merged it a couple of days ago
08:41 sorush20 TheMuso: you have a big point there..
08:41 heno I need to email the icon designer and make sure we don't get that :)
08:41 Mithrandir TheMuso: it could be on tomorrows if you want.
08:42 heno Mithrandir: yes please :)
08:42 TheMuso Mithrandir: No point in doing so until we have the necessary packages.
08:42 TheMuso on the live CD.
08:42 TheMuso Which is the point we are still discussing.
08:42 TheMuso I am trying to work out here just how much space they would take up, so bare with me guys
08:43 heno so what is the right process for that?
08:43 heno thanks
We need to finalize what speech approach we are going to take, and if we have to use flite due
08:43 TheMuso to space constraints, there is no choice but to use speech-dispatcher. Yeah the driver is
young, but we have no choice.
08:44 heno sorush20: here is a description of how it will work:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/Accessibility
08:45 heno the irony is that it doesn't seem to take that much less space
08:45 sorush20 how are you guys going to do documentation for blind people?
08:45 heno I'm hoping to push the new slimmer WinFOSS package out Sunday-ish, which should clear up a ton
of space
08:45 sorush20 talking about the interface between brail writer and linux?
08:45 Riddell heno: what will (or not) be in that?
08:46 heno Then the plan is to just grab it again ;)
08:46 heno Riddell: I'll remove OpenOffice and see if people cry
08:46 Riddell that should free some space :)
08:46 heno the mailing lists seemed to agree on that
08:47 heno but I'll add some stuff
08:47 Riddell heno: will you do the same for the kubuntu winfoss?
08:47 heno of course some wanten no winfoss at all
08:47 TheMuso Ok. The debs themselves are about 10.6MB. When installed, 40.5MB will be used on disk.
08:47 heno Riddell: didn't we already skip OO on kubuntu?
08:47 TheMuso Give or take a few meg.
08:48 heno TheMuso: that's not too bad
08:48 Riddell heno: don't think so, can't actually remember now
08:48 heno Riddell: btw, I have anew layout now which IMHO is look sweet :)
08:48 heno http://www.theopencd.org/LayoutIdeas
08:48 heno (sorry OT)
08:48 TheMuso heno: Thats not entirely accurate, as I am trying to work this out on a dapper chroot atm. That
is with flite though.
08:49 TheMuso But as close as I can get it.
08:49 heno ah, ok
08:49 heno I'd be very interested to see Festival too
08:49 TheMuso Hang on.
08:50 TheMuso Festival on its own is about 16.1MB.
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08:52 heno So we might land on about 22 as the Sun-gnome guys suggested
08:52 dholbach which packages? installed size?
08:52 heno that would be ok
08:52 heno deb size I guess
08:52 TheMuso We are concerned with the installed size as debs aren't used on the Live CD.
08:53 heno True, but I guess they give an idea of how well it compresses
08:53 TheMuso Yeah thats true.
08:54 TheMuso SHould have a deacent figure for you in a sec for gnome-speech with festival.
08:54 heno cool
08:55 heno enrico: did you ever get openoffice or firefox to talk to you in Italian?
08:55 heno I was reading about your efforts on planet debian I think
08:55 TheMuso There is only 3MB difference between flite and festival it seems.
08:56 dholbach hrm
08:56 heno right, so the choice seems obvious. perhaps flite is bundled with too much stuff?
08:56 TheMuso Festival packages compress down to about 5948KB from 16MB or so.
08:57 TheMuso I don't know.
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08:57 TheMuso Festival would actually be a safer route, as it is an already tested gnome-speech setup
08:57 heno I think we should lobby for Festival then
08:57 heno yep
08:57 TheMuso Mind you that doesn't include any other voices for other languages.
08:57 enrico heno: haven't done that try yet
08:58 heno how big is GOK by comparison?
08:58 enrico heno: but I should be about to get a small working plan approved (and paid)
08:58 TheMuso heno: Well in that case, we also need to get libgnome-speech3, gnopernicus, libatspi1.0-0,
at-spi and gok onto the CD.
08:58 heno enrico: really, to work on accessibility stuff? cool!
08:58 dholbach what about gnome-mag?
08:58 TheMuso and gnome-mag
=== TheMuso would love to be paid for working on accessibility. :)
08:59 TheMuso BUt that will come in time. :)
08:59 heno what do you mean 'in that case'? Festival route?
08:59 dholbach how much would that weigh in?
09:00 heno TheMuso: definately! you are getting a proven track record as an expert :)
09:00 TheMuso heno: Gnome-speech with festival has been used dand tested extensively. It is a proven speech
setup.
09:00 enrico heno: nothing signed yet, fingers crossed, lots of final work to do in the next few days
09:01 enrico TheMuso: we're talking not many hours so far, unfortunately. But the good thing is that we are
talking for a small pilot project to see how we get alng
09:01 TheMuso dholbach: about 37.9MB. It was bigger before for flite due to other gnome libraries having to
be installed.
09:01 TheMuso So flite would probably be 34 or so.
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09:01 heno TheMuso: is that the total with gok and everything?
09:02 dholbach + the speech-dispatcher dependencies
09:02 TheMuso heno: Yes.
09:02 TheMuso dholbach: That is not including speech-dispatcher or flite.
09:02 heno which we don't need with Festival
09:02 dholbach dotconf and speech-tool
09:02 dholbach dotconf and speech-tools
09:02 TheMuso They only get included with flite.
09:02 dholbach phew
09:03 dholbach yeah
09:03 heno TheMuso: OK, cool. It's good to have an approximate number number
09:03 TheMuso So as much as flite is smaller, I reckon we push for festival.
09:03 TheMuso festival is in main anyway.
09:03 heno I'll email the people who decide and ask nicely
09:04 TheMuso But for future relesaes, if the speech-dispatcher driver gets better, I would like to pursue
that route for speech.
09:04 TheMuso heno: Thanks.
09:04 heno And Festival sounds soooo much better IMO
09:04 TheMuso Once we have the packages on the CD, we can then get the casper stuff done and start testing.
09:05 TheMuso Festival in the future allows for further language expansion should we need it.
09:05 heno TheMuso, dholbach: could one of you end me a list of the package names
09:05 heno ? for my email
09:05 TheMuso I have your address. Sending now.
09:06 heno thanks
TheMuso: note that festival might not be the synthesis of choice for some languages. For
09:06 enrico example, while festival is a decent synthesis for Italian, there's a proprietary synthesis
called 'Eloquence', for Linux, which is light years better
09:08 TheMuso Sent.
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09:08 sorush20 is the meeting finished.?
09:08 TheMuso enrico: I know, but that is proprietary. We can't ship that.
09:08 TheMuso sorush20: We still have another point to discuss.
09:09 enrico TheMuso: sure
09:09 heno got it thanks
09:09 heno So point 4: the todo list needs cleaning up
09:09 heno Which is good news
09:09 enrico TheMuso: I just wanted to point out that I wish festival shouldn't be too hardcoded into things
09:10 dholbach yeah :-))))
09:10 heno perhaps we should split it into a dapper and a deferred section
09:10 TheMuso enrico: It isn't. However I don't see how that synth would work. Can you point me to some info
about it?
09:10 TheMuso heno: SOunds good.
09:11 heno enrico: we should even consider making a derivative at some point where some priprietary stuff
could in theory go in
09:11 TheMuso heno: Or at least packages to help one install proprietary stuff.
09:11 heno right
09:11 TheMuso As there are a few synths that gnome-speech supports that are proprietary, and I have access to
them, i.e bought copies for testing.
09:12 TheMuso And on my laptop, I use one of them on a daily basis
09:12 heno One point on the todo list that we might want to bring up is documentation
09:13 TheMuso I am not good at docs. :)
09:13 heno that was doing really well but seems to have stalled
09:13 enrico TheMuso: should be around http://www.speechworks.com/demos/eti.cfm but I can't get to it now
09:13 TheMuso I think Jason is busy with life stuff.
09:13 heno I think Jaso got really busy
09:13 enrico TheMuso: more info will come when I'll actually lay my hands on it
09:13 enrico heno: for Italian, that'd be something I'd do
09:13 enrico heno: (I mean, the derivative)
09:14 TheMuso I get a download question. Won't let me view it as it should.
09:14 heno enrico: cool
09:14 enrico TheMuso: :( I get a white page and a 1x1 pixel popup
09:15 heno I've spoken with mdke on the doc team and they arehappy to include it if we have something
ready
09:15 TheMuso enrico: Worked out why, and I know eactly the synth you are talking about, as it is used in
JAWS for Windows, and many mobile applications.
09:15 heno it would go in yelp
09:15 dholbach brb
09:15 TheMuso Eloquence is a well known synth in the blind community.
09:16 TheMuso THey changed name to Nuance COmmunications.
09:16 TheMuso Or something like that.
TheMuso: there'd even be a 'Loquendo' for Italian which should be even better, but it has no
09:16 enrico Linux binaries as I know of. Although I could have extreme plans of running it as a TCP
service in a Window virtual machine inside a vmware player and making it speak from Linux :)
09:16 enrico (kind of like my old dosgate hack)
09:17 TheMuso Go to www.nuance.com for more info.
09:17 enrico But please, don't make me digress on proprietary software. That's a stinky bit that shouldn't
be particularly supported by this group.
09:18 TheMuso I know.
09:18 TheMuso I am all for free software, but proprietary synths are so much better.
09:18 TheMuso But that is another story.
09:19 heno Right, so we are at the end of the agenda I think
09:19 heno any other items?
09:19 TheMuso Not from me atm.
09:20 TheMuso dholbach: I should have a patch for gnopernicus with gconf settings later today.
=== enrico should add a small point
09:20 enrico about self
09:20 dholbach TheMuso: that'd be great
09:20 enrico If all goes well I'm about to sign a small contract (100 hours for 2006) with a local high-tech
center for the blind
09:20 dholbach TheMuso: we'll have a status update meeting at 2:00 utc, so i'll be awake for quite a while
09:21 TheMuso Ok.
09:21 TheMuso It shouldn't take all that long.
09:21 enrico they have skilled people (but not on Linux) and a big archive of accessibility hardware
09:21 TheMuso Then I can remove those changes from the casper script and push them through.
09:21 enrico the idea is to try to start looking at accessibility of free software, and atm that means
Ubuntu
09:21 TheMuso Yeah.
09:22 heno enrico: cool. Look forward to working with you on that :)
09:22 enrico plans go along the line of "first get to do it. Then document it. Then improve it."
09:22 heno sounds like a good plan
09:22 enrico I look forward to working with you all on that
09:22 enrico and of course I hope the project goes well and it can be continued
09:22 dholbach cool :)
09:23 enrico documentation will be mainly in Italian, or centered at having an Italian speaking desktop
09:23 TheMuso It would be nice to get some of the team at least at the next conference.
09:23 enrico I could do translation of it, though
09:24 heno TheMuso: dholbach and I will certainly be there
=== TheMuso is going to try and get sponsored to get there.
09:24 dholbach wooo! :)
09:24 enrico Ubuntu confs are fun
09:24 TheMuso Or seek other funding to help.
09:25 heno TheMuso: cool! We'll support you :)
09:25 TheMuso Cool, thanks guys. Even if sponsorship doesn't happen, there are other sources of funding I can
certainly look at, which may help me get there anyway.
09:27 heno OK, I will go write some emails. Thanks guys. Good meeting!
09:27 enrico heno: thanks for telling me of the meeting. I was in need of a pretext to tell everyone what I
should going to be up to :)
09:27 heno heh
09:27 TheMuso heno: Thanks again.
09:28 dholbach thanks guys for all the good work you did :)
09:29 TheMuso No problem.
09:29 heno yep, we've got a good little core team going now :)
09:29 Riddell who's the best person to talk to about live cd accessibility profile for kubuntu?
09:30 heno depends on what aspect, probably TheMuso or Mithrandir or Kamion
09:30 heno or yourself :)
09:30 Riddell just need to find out how it's done so we can do the equivalent thing
09:31 TheMuso Riddell: FOr the GNOME accessibility settings, we are directly setting stuff in gconf.
09:31 dholbach Riddell: one part of it is in casper's casper-bottom/30accessibility
09:33 TheMuso The other part will be in the packages we ship on the CD.
09:33 TheMuso i.e gnopernicus will have the settings we want patched into it.
09:34 TheMuso So what you see in the casper script is going to change quite a lot in the next day or so.
09:35 Riddell where can I find that script?
09:36 TheMuso Ok guys, I'm outa here. Ping me in #ubuntu-accessibility or query me if you need anything.
09:36 TheMuso If you are using bzr, pull a branch from Mithrandir's casper trunk.
09:36 Riddell TheMuso: thanks
09:36 TheMuso I can get the address for you if you like.MeetingLogs/Accessibility/20060301 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:20:54 by localhost)