2006-08-10

Introduction

Brief introduction to the team, meeting, and theme if possible.

Team Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InsertTeamPage
Meeting Log(s): Part 1 and Part 2
Meeting Chair: Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
Meeting Minutes by: Richard Johnson (nixternal)

Present

The following were present during this meeting:

Members Present

Others Present

Membership Requests

No membership requests scheduled for this meeting, however Ryan Kavanagh has requested an introduction to the Kubuntu team. The following is a brief introduction:

The following is an abridged version of the introduction. Please refer to the logs for this introduction in its entirety. 

<Riddell> next item: welcome ryanakca

<ryanakca> Hello all...

<Riddell> ryanakca: what's your name and what are you interested in?

<ryanakca> I'm Ryan Kavanagh, and I'm interested in helping out kubuntu... I'm not really a programmer... but I am learning C...

<ryanakca> ummm... I've packaged a few things... and that's about it...

<ryanakca> I'm interested in helping out wherever possible :)

<nixternal> he is one of the New User Mentors who created the Classroom!!!

<Riddell> ryanakca: great to have you

Agenda Items

The following agendas were proposed for this meeting:

Tom Albers (toma)

  • Rosetta's way of woking collides with KDE's translations system. IMHO, we need to find a solution which is satisfying for both.. Together with the KDE Translation teams I have prepared a document stating the problems and some solutions. I would like to discuss the correct way to proceed in this area.

  • Some of the Kubuntu packages are also maintained by Debian. They are maintained on Alioth, in particular the kde-extra's team. I would like to know if it would be possible to maintain those packages on Alioth. Changes made in Kubuntu now are often copied to Debian and when that is done a sync needs to be requested to get auto updates. Lot of duplicate and boring work.Links:

  • Discuss Sime's Blog entry about the way media is handled in KDE

Brandon Holtsclaw (imbrandon)

  • Disscuss Wishlist Bug 49774 I think it makes a very valid point that is attainable by edgy release , if so deemed after the meeting I can create a spec.

Sarah Hobbs (Hobbsee)

Richard Johnson (nixternal)

  • Kubuntu Edgy Knot Releases - Knot 2 is pretty much complete, but for the next releases, we need content that is "Edgy", the bleeding edge stuff as reported in the original Edgy Eft announcement by sabdfl.

Kenny Duffus (seaLne)

Benjamin Long (bipolar)

  • Edgy media backend.... Are we going back to gstreamer?

Proceedings

  • Meeting called to order at 21:07 UTC, by Meeting Chair, Jonathan Riddell

Agenda

The following is a break down of the entire meeting by agenda items.

Rosetta's way of woking collides with KDE's translations system. IMHO, we need to find a solution which is satisfying for both.. Together with the KDE Translation teams I have prepared a document stating the problems and some solutions. I would like to discuss the correct way to proceed in this area

Presented by: Tom Albers (toma)

Tom Albers states the the current situation between the Rosetta translation system and the KDE translations system collides with one another. Tom created a document stating the current situations along with some solutions that could help. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<toma> item 1 rosetta!

<toma> Starting from KDE 3.5.4, the Kubuntu version op KDE contains a link to help translating the application in the help menu.

<toma> The link points to Rosetta. The KDE-translators have expressed their concerns about this.

<toma> The last week I've taken the time to list all the concerns ans some possible solutions.

<toma> http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDERosettaCollaboration

<toma> I think it is important that we - as in kubuntu - pass on the concerns to the rosetta developers.

<toma> I would like to know how you think about this situation and would like advice about how to proceed with this document.

<imbrandon> toma, Hobbsee: second line on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu FYI

<Riddell> I do see and agree with most of the concerns of the KDE translators, but I also see the advantage of a rosetta system

<Riddell> I'm also pretty confident that the rosetta developers are working on fixing most of the problems KDE has with rosetta

<imbrandon> yea the main thing is making our case to the KDE team about the advantages of rosetta and maybe finding a way it can sync both ways

<toma> Riddell: are they aware of them?

<Riddell> toma: I've spoken to them on IRC throughout the KDE thread (which they've also read)

<Riddell> toma: but I think I should ask them to respond directly to the points on the wiki page

<allee> Riddell: problem is that no rosetta devel search an dialog with the translators

<toma> Riddell: can you do that, that would be a great start.

<Riddell> toma: and as I said on the list we'll have a kubuntu bof with sabdfl at Akademy where we can bring up these points

<toma> allright.

<Riddell> allee: you mean the rosetta developers should respond directory on the upstream translators lists?

<allee> yeap.

<toma> oh, that would be great, make sure they wear bullutproof jackets

<allee> but the wiki page is fine too.

<Riddell> allee: I can ask them to do that too

<allee> when there's resetta thread activity again in kde-i18n then it may help if the rosetta devel answer directly

<Riddell> allee: yep

<toma> yes

Outcome: Riddell will communicate further with the Rosetta Developers concerning this agenda item.

Some of the Kubuntu packages are also maintained by Debian. They are maintained on Alioth, in particular the kde-extra's team. I would like to know if it would be possible to maintain those packages on Alioth. Changes made in Kubuntu now are often copied to Debian and when that is done a sync needs to be requested to get auto updates. Lot of duplicate and boring work

Presented by: Tom Albers (toma)

Tom Albers lets it be known that some of the Kubuntu packages are also maintained on Alioth (http://alioth.debian.org) and when changes are made to Kubuntu they are often copied to Debian, and vice versa. Tom's idea is that working from one source, such as Alioth, would control the duplication of work. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<toma> A lot of KDE packages are packed on Debian within the KDE-extra's team.

<toma> Achim and me maintain packages for both distributions. If the Kubuntu version diverts from the debian one that causes a lot of duplicate work, which can be prevented.

<toma> Everyone is capable of requesting an account on the server where those packages are maintained. Achim and me will support the request and get you up-to-speed.

<toma> Via a svn-repository you can prepare the package and then ask a sponsor to upload (regulary that happens in a matter of hours).

<toma> It saves ugly merges and needless requests of syncs.

<toma> links to the packages involved are on the agenda

<Hobbsee> we certainly need an updated list of what is in there, so we know not to touch it in ubuntu

<toma> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-kde-extras@lists.alioth.debian.org

<allee> Hobbsee: the svn URL gives you a the list

<Hobbsee> oh yeah, right, i see :P

<Riddell> toma: are you saying more software should be maintained in kde-extras or that we should make better use of the current packages in kde-extras?

<allee> Riddell: both does not hurt ;)

<toma> Riddell: the packages in debians kde-extra's shpould be maintained there, as long as possible

<Hobbsee> it has to be better maintaining them there than getting the programs off kdeapps.org and then finding that debian has packaged it later.

<allee> Riddell: and every kde pkg in kubuntu but not debian can be added there

<Riddell> allee: if someone want to do that, it would be cool :)

<Riddell> I'm all for more use of kde-extras, especially if the package is already there I guess we should have a policy of it being the first resort

<allee> Riddell: biggest problem up to know was 'not time to create an alioth account" ;)

<Riddell> allee: who controls permissions on the pkg-kde svn?

<allee> Riddell: the KDE core pkgs.

<Riddell> soon to include fabo I note

<allee> permissions are set seperately for kde-extras.

<Riddell> allee: but kde-extras is also under pkg-kde yes?

<allee> Riddell: yeah, fabo is amazing

<allee> yes

<allee> in the subdir kde-extras

<seaLne> can you give an example of workflow using this?

<imbrandon> yea exactly , thats what i'm wondering

<Riddell> it's also worth noting that ubuntu shouldn't depend on debian packaging infrastructure, nobody should feel they have to use kde-extras

<toma> Hobbsee: my idea, tonio's execution

<Hobbsee> right, yep.  it probably makes sense though

<Lure> Hobbsee: talk with Tonio

<allee> seaLne: I build digikam* form svn on kubuntu.  When I'm happy I ask on pkg-kde-extras ml for an upload.  Usually 24h later it's in debian and a bit later in kubuntu

* Hobbsee will.  actually, i thought it was reverted.  anyway

<allee> seaLne: Now when ready for an upload I ask for upload.  Rebuild a *~ach0dapper1 pkg and upload to my repo (until backports gets active)

<imbrandon> allee: so in other words your saying we should just maintain the packages in debain and then sync them , isnt this the case 90% of the time already ?

<Riddell> allee: where your repo?

<allee> Riddell: http://www.mpe.mpg.de/~ach/kubuntu

<toma> imbrandon: yes, but we see you break it now and then and make small changes to the ubuntu packages

<toma> imbrandon: that means, we copy it in debian

<allee> toma: post you repo too.  Your have more recent pkgs ;)

<toma> imbrandon: and after that, we request a sync at kubuntu's side again

<Hobbsee> you both have repos?

<seaLne> how would that work for kubuntu specific stuff?

<Hobbsee> it's probably important to avoid more duplication than absolutely necessary

<toma> http://kubuntu.omat.nl

<allee> Hobbsee: we all wait for -backports :(

<imbrandon> Hobbsee: i do too, makes for good testing ;)

<Hobbsee> allee: true

<allee> seaLne: If there's really kubuntu specific stuff that can not merged.  we can use a branch/kubuntu

<toma> allright, so does anyone object?

<allee> seaLne: but for apps most if this stuff is of systematic nature and better fixed in kde.mk of cdbs

<Riddell> toma: no objections, but just as I say that nobody should feel they have to go through debian if they feel it adds more hassle

<imbrandon> Riddell: yea , i wanna "test" the workflow a bit, i got no objection to the theory but ..... well yea

<Lure> allee: can you put this on wiki?

<allee> seaLne: Main point is you one has a fix directly checkin in kde-extras svn repo saves sending patches merging later etc.

<Lure> (how to for the people that would like to use debian svn)

<allee> Lure: you have a existing page in mind or a new one?

<imbrandon> allee: whom do I^W we poke for svn commit access then ?

<Hobbsee> Lure: that'd be useful

<Lure> allee: probably new one...

<allee> imbrandon: ask on #qt-kde-debian on oftc

<allee> or send an sign mail (as used for you alioth account) to pkg-kde-talk@alioth.debian.net (<- hope that correct)

<Riddell> that's #debian-qt-kde  :)

<Lure> allee: problem is that it is hard to get though ubuntu policies and then having to go through debian might be seen as additional complexity - I understand the end result is better, but getting ther is critical - this is where wiki helps

<toma> you can create an account at http://alioth.debian.org/

<allee> Lure: the pkg policies/requirements are the same.  I e.g. never test my pkgs on debian.  That's their task. I only promise works in kubuntu

<Riddell> the policies are the same, it's mostly individual developers who have different standards, e.g. I'll approve stuff that isaac won't and the other way around

<allee> Hobbsee: for 'normal' KDE apps this okay on kubuntu implies okay in debian

<imbrandon> hrm ok, i'll for one look into it but i dont think it should be *required* yet, just my 0.2c

<Riddell> imbrandon: it's not, and never will be

<allee> imbrandon: agreed. *required* is bad.

<Riddell> imbrandon: but it could well be a good idea in a lot of cases

<imbrandon> yea save alot of merges

Outcome: No objections were expressed, however there was still a tone of concern. This topic will more than likely be discussed further at another time.

Discuss Sime's Blog entry about the way media is handled in KDE

Presented by: Tom Albers (toma)

Tom Albers initiates discussion concerning the blog post of Simon Edwards (Sime). The post, properly titled "Better media and IO-slave integration," was created to explain the attempt to simplify file and device management in KDE, while advoiding someo f the draw backs of the current media:/ io-slave. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<toma> Sime's blog gives an interesting new perspective to KDE's file dialog. Frustrated by the media:/ I once wrote a medialib, which was meant to tackle some of the problems. But it never got in workable state.

<toma> The basic idea of Simon is to hide all not-for-user-eyes-meant folders like (/dev, /etc, /initrd, /bin, etc). File dialogs only show /home and /media by default.

<toma> Under /media are all devices normally visible under media:/

<toma> I fully support the idea, and I would like to know what you think about it.

* allee too  media: and system: home: made too much trouble

<Riddell> I think it sounds very interesting

<imbrandon> yea i'm +1 too for what its worth

<Lure> toma: I like Sime's work a lot and looks promising

<allee> Sime: did you get any response from other kde core members about your idea

<seaLne> toma: is it easy to get to / ?

<Riddell> it might be a disaster with some unforseen circunstances, but we need to try it to find out

<Lure> and if we need something Edgy, this could be it ;-)

<Sime> I've been emailed by ervin.

<toma> Sime: what did he say?

<Sime> allee: he is interested in working together, but...

<Riddell> Sime: how close are your patches to being ready to upload?

<Sime> I'm not sure if ervin has much time for KDE 3 though. ( he is busy with KDE 4)

<seaLne> what about just adding media:/ to the icons on the left that you can add locations to but by default?

<Riddell> I wouldn't want to distract ervin from kde 4 :)

<Sime> Riddell: the notification dialog still opens stuff in media:/, and there are some issue with refreshing the file list, and...

<Sime> Riddell: udev needs to provide better mount point names.

<sebas> That's HAL :)

<Lure> Sime: this is dapper bug and should be fixed

<Sime> I only got that email from ervin tonight.

<Riddell> Sime: mount point names in KDE 3.4 are handled by HAL, and I believe they're intentially human readable

<Lure> Sime: it works in GNOME (somehow)...

<mjg59> udev doesn't generate mountpoint names, surely?

<toma> Sime: do you have the time to fix those / are you willing to fix those issues?

<Riddell> Sime: presumably we'd need to patch the system menu on kicker as well as the popup

<sebas> I can imagine that it's not going into KDE3, it has to be widely tested first, and be without problems (proven!)

<sebas> So the way it *might* go into KDE3 would be first via Edgy so bugs are shaken out

<Sime> sebas: no, it won't come into kde 3. no time.

<Sime> sebas: perhaps for edgy.

<ompaul> I was under an assumption that there was a proposal floating in the gnome household that was saying hide all that material also .. might be worth investigating

<sebas> Yeah, probably not.

<toma> ompaul: i thought nautilus did that laready

<allee> Sime: media dialog has also the problem what it pop up in every session (:0, :1 etc) and does not close if device is unpluged

<sebas> I suggest having someone with inside knowledge of kdelibs review it, and have someone from OpenUsability review it.

<Sime> toma: I'm willing to put some time into it (some how).

<Riddell> allee: we need to get JRe to fix that :)

<Sime> The patches need to be tested first by us.

<ompaul> toma, my understanding is there is something else for more hiding

<Sime> this stuff is really alpha/beta quality now.

<allee> Riddell: JRe or ervin told me that it's not easy :(

<Sime> until they get tested first.

<imbrandon> Sime i dont mind guine pigging catch me in #kubuntu-devel anytime

<Riddell> imbrandon: patches are on his blog, go ahead and try them

<toma> ok, so in current state it is not ready for edgy

<Sime> what I'm saying is that I don't know what else is borken and needs to be fixed.

<Sime> that is our first task.

<Riddell> it sounds like they are ready for edgy given edgy's current state

<Riddell> although some testing first would be a good idea

<Lure> Riddell: I would agree - we can drop them anytime

<imbrandon> exactly better to get them in soonish and work out bugs now

<imbrandon> then knot 7 or soem such

<toma> good, we can pull them out at any time of course

* gnomefreak will test anything you have ready

<allee> Will media:, system: go away in KDE4?

<Riddell> allee: undecided

<Riddell> imbrandon: fancy making us some .debs with those patches so we can test?

<Sime> ervin is still working that stuff from what I understand.

<imbrandon> Riddell: sure thing

<allee> if not we have the problem that we now start some sort of fork that needs maintaining ...

<Sime> a wiki page for this would be useful too. ;-)

<Riddell> allee: it shouldn't be hard to maintain them in KDE 3, and KDE 4 will be sufficiently different that they'll need re-written anyway

<Lure> Sime: can we make this behaviour optional and not dependant on other features (View Hidden files)?

<imbrandon> Sime: yea when i "debianize" it i'll wiki it

<toma> allee: let's first see how the results are while we test it

<Hobbsee> +1 Lure

<Lure> then we could easily turn it of for people complaining

<gnomefreak> i thought i read somewhere today that kde4 wouldnt be that different

<toma> allee: if we need to patch every corner of kde, i might agree

<Sime> Lure: not easily.

<Sime> imbrandon: cool

<Hobbsee> personally, i think we need to take Lure's suggestion for all the konqi defaults we change.  there are people who like standard kde, but want the otherwise ease of use of kubuntu

<Sime> if these changes work out well in edgy, then there is a good chance that they will appear in some form in KDE4.

<Riddell> Hobbsee: all the konqui changes are easily revertable

<Hobbsee> Riddell: true, if you play with config files.  i was thinking more a menu option

<Sime> kubuntu has a good track record for changes in kde.

<allee> I'm somehow not completely happy with the 'hidden file' feature.  somehow this diverts for unix.  But I would be happy to hide files via .hidden if dot-files and hidden files can be set independently

<Riddell> allee: kioslaves can now set arbitrary files as "hidden"

<Sime> allee: in which directory?

<imbrandon> allee: yea but userfriendly isnt unix, also there could be a "godmode" that ignores it

<Sime> allee: root uses .hidden, /home doesn't though

<Lure> allee: +1

<allee> Sime: ah, I thought .hidden can be placed everywhere is is hounred

<Sime> allee: that is true.

<Lure> Sime: and for /home suggestion in blog comments about showing the one's user has access would be nice

<Sime> allee: there is extra code for /home.

<Sime> Lure: true, it is an interesting idea.

<allee> Sime:  I would 'show hidden files and 'show dot' files.  so expert and newbies can feel at home

<Sime> allee: that would be a much bigger change though (-> time)

<Riddell> allee: that's too complex if you ask me, and I don't see the advant1age

<allee> Sime: oh,  so it 'breaks' with /home/<chr>/<user>  or homes NFS or AFS that does start /home/*?

<toma> allee: if a user want to see /initrd, he can cope with some dot files ;-)

<Sime> allee: probably.

<sebas> The "breaks "/home/<chr>/<users>" problem can be solved by dynamically deciding what /home is, from /etc userconf.

<Lure> allee: it should not break /home/<char>/<name>/ if access() check is used for hiding...

<Riddell> plan is for imbrandon to compile us some packages, and if they're sane we'll throw it into edgy and see what breaks

<sebas> That's where guidance decides where to put new homedirs.

<Sime> ok, once a wiki page is up, I'll add my list of known problems.

<toma> summary: test imbrandon's package, if generally ok upload to edgy

Outcome: Brandon Holtsclaw created the packages and are currently being tested by various members. Further testing will be considered in order to see if the patches will be in fact added to Edgy.

Discuss wishlist bug 49774 as it makes a very valid point that is attainable by Edgy release

Presented by: Brandon Holtsclaw (imbrandon)

Brandon Holtsclaw brings up the topic of bug 49774, a wishlist bug, that would "Reduce the number of dependencies in kubuntu-desktop." Brandon states that if this item is valid, that he will create a spec after the meeting. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<imbrandon> disscuss Wishlist Bug 49774 I think it makes a very valid point that is attainable by edgy release , if so deemed after the meeting I can create a spec -- imbrandon\

<Ubugtu> Malone bug 49774 in kubuntu-meta "(WISH) Reduce the number of dependences in kubuntu-desktop" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed] http://launchpad.net/bugs/49774

<Riddell> imbrandon: answer is talk to mvo about recommends support

<imbrandon> i dont think that the exact implmentation he said

<imbrandon> will work BUT

<imbrandon> i was thinking kubuntu-base and kubuntu-{desktop,laptop}

<Riddell> imbrandon: installing recommends by default will soon be turns on in apt, and then the kubuntu-desktop and other meta packages will move to Recommends so you can remove software

<imbrandon> Riddell: ouch that leaves alot of cleaning up in recomends for stuff in universe

<Riddell> imbrandon: splitting up the meta package is never going to work, you'll always have people who want to uninstall something

<seaLne> i'm not convinced your avaerage user would ever remove software

<Hobbsee> in one sense, that's the purpose of a metapackage.  to install all needed stuff - and it can be removed

<Hobbsee> but it does make it painful for upgrading

<toma> seaLne: indeed, i still have cups at home ;-)

<imbrandon> Hobbsee: yea but everywhere you look someone says DONT REMOVE IT or it will break

<Hobbsee> imbrandon: true..

<seaLne> it dose break some stuff like newly added stuff you wouldn't get

<Hobbsee> ther'es a lot of....ah...shall we say...interesting help that seems to go on in #kubuntu.  or #ubuntu for that matter

<imbrandon> Riddell: so whens the move to recomends ?

<Riddell> imbrandon: soon, mvo will make an announcement

<imbrandon> and coudl we look at a kubuntu-base and kubunut-{desktop,laptop} as a fallback if recomnds fails horribly heh

<Riddell> imbrandon: splitting wouldn't help matters

<Riddell> and there's not much wrong with uninstalling kubuntu-desktop anyway, you can always reinstall it again on the upgrade

<imbrandon> hrm it would help not having lappy tools on my desktop like bluetooth stuff

<toma> imbrandon: kubuntu-base equals kdebase ?

<imbrandon> true, i'm not thinking about me specificly though mostly users

<Riddell> I've never noticed bluetooth tools getting in my way

<Hobbsee> ah yes, why *do* we ship bluetooth stuff with k-d

<Riddell> Hobbsee: for people who need bluetooth support (especially important if you have a bluetooth keyboard)

<Hobbsee> Riddell: ahh...so you need it for install.

* Hobbsee wonders why there isnt a bluetooth detection package, like the laptop detect one.

<Riddell> Hobbsee: bluez does detect if it's needed or not

<Riddell> linux also comes with 500 drivers you'll never use

<imbrandon> drivers dont show up on the kmenu though

<Hobbsee> it's more the menu options that i never use that annoy me

<Hobbsee> as i cant remove the buggers.

<Riddell> Hobbsee: well you will when Recommends comes along!

<allee> Hobbsee, imbrandon IMHO kdebluetooth should not start when not available and menues can be rearranged ;)  Maybe file bugs so it get's not forgotten?

<imbrandon> allee: yea it dosent start just gets in my way on the kmenu

<imbrandon> i will

Outcome: This topic will be brought up time and time again due to the "annoyance" factor it seems to hold on some people. Brandon's idea concerning this is extremely valid, and future work may be done to fix some of the points brought up during this conversation.

Anyone got any patches they want to add into amarok 1.4.2? I'm planning to package it when it comes out, along with a few bugfixes. Volunteers requested for writing the upstream version freeze exception.

Presented by: Sarah Hobbs (Hobbsee)

Sarah Hobbs asks if anyone has patches so she can go ahead and get Amarok 1.4.2 packaged as soon as it is released. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<Hobbsee> Anyone got any patches they want to add into amarok 1.4.2? I'm planning to package it when it comes out, along with a few bugfixes.

<Hobbsee> Who wants to write the upstream version freeze exception report for amarok 1.4.2?

<Hobbsee> well IMO the person that packages it /should/ do this heheh but if you dont fell like it I can, let me know -- imbrandon 2006-08-10 17:43:31

<Riddell> Hobbsee: when is it out again?

<Hobbsee> amarok 1.4.2 is due out on sunday, iv'e already started doing fixes for it

<Hobbsee> if anyone else really wants to package it, feel free, just take my changes :P

<Riddell> Hobbsee: please do package it, I have no paticular requests to be added

<toma> Hobbsee: do you get a pre-release version, so we release on the same time?

<Riddell> Hobbsee: if you fancy doing dapper builds too I'm sure plenty of people would like that

<Hobbsee> cool.  anyone else got requests?  if they do, can they file a bug on it under amarok, and assign it to me?

<allee> Hobbsee: hint amorak is also in alioth ;) In people/dato not kde-extras

<imbrandon> make sure it uses the new libvis 0.4 is all i request

<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, was planning to.  and whatever else needs building on that.  host on kde?

<Hobbsee> imbrandon: yeah, i fixed that.

<Riddell> Hobbsee: on kubuntu.org (amarok doesn't release on ftp.kde.org)

<Hobbsee> toma: nope, i have the beta1 working nicely here though

<sebas> In fact, I think Amarok devs asked for a KDE account to put their stuff on.

<imbrandon> Hobbsee: you could probably talk to the amarok devs and get one though

<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah.  of course.  i *meant* kubuntu.org.  i know that wasnt what i said :P

<Riddell> apachelogger will say when builds are available

<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: you have a deb posted for it yet? (for beta)

<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: er, yeah, i did...i386.  check in buntudot.org/packages/~hobbsee/

<toma> Hobbsee: would be nice to get kubuntu in the announcement

<toma> Hobbsee: should i talk to them?

<Hobbsee> toma: please do :)

<toma> Hobbsee:how soon can you have thos packages after their release?

<Hobbsee> toma: depends if i'm home on sunday. you talking about in edgy, or at all?

<Riddell> toma: depends if apachelogger gives us pre-notice of the build

<Hobbsee> toma: in edgy, it'll have to go thru a upstream version exception report process

<sebas> If they should add it to their announcement, you need packages for Dapper as well, I guess few people follow Edgy.

<Riddell> Hobbsee: there's also a developers channel for amarok that can be useful around release time

Outcome: Amarok 1.4.2 upon release will be packaged with the approved packages, scripts, and plug-ins.

There now exists a universe uploads team, you can use this if there's no one around to upload, or you prefer to do it via LP, etc. Please attach a debdiff between current debian, and your version (for merges, at least). Syncs too

Presented by: Sarah Hobbs (Hobbsee)

Sarah Hobbs presents the new Universe Uploads Team. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<Hobbsee>       There now exists a universe uploads team: [WWW] https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-universe-sponsors You can use this if there's no one around to upload, or you prefer to do it via LP, etc. Please attach a debdiff between current debian, and your version (for merges, at least). Syncs too.
<Hobbsee>       rationalle:  it's quite hard to get stuff uploaded to universe, if you dotn konw the people
<Riddell>       pitti announced it here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-August/019922.html
<Riddell>       my worry is that if I subscribe to that I'll be flodded with upload requests for stuff I don't care or know about
* Riddell wonders who's on the main team
<Riddell>       a fair number https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-main-sponsors
<Riddell>       but I should probably subscribe incase kde stuff comes onto it
<imbrandon>     yea good idea /me looks at allee and toma too
<Hobbsee>       Riddell: sounds sane.  or someone could just poke you for kde based stuff
<Riddell>       poking usually works best with me

Outcome: This was just a team introduction.

Point people towards: Do the merges *before* the rebuilds - we can upload rebuilds after universe freeze a lot easier than new versions

Presented by: Sarah Hobbs (Hobbsee)

Sarah Hobbs points out that is will be easier to upload the rebuilds after the universe freeze, so in the mean time members should be concentrating on merges. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<Hobbsee> next item:  Are there any performance patches in other distros for KDE that we should be including? Make KDE faster at all?

<Riddell> Hobbsee: none that I know of

<Riddell> although it's always worth keeping an eye on http://ktown.kde.org/~binner/distributor-patches/

* Hobbsee heard talk of suse and something or other else having a faster kde.

<Riddell> Hobbsee: the patches from suse have been put into mainline KDE

Outcome: There are currently no patches needed to be tested.

Are we to test anything specific?

Presented by: Sarah Hobbs (Hobbsee)

Sarah Hobbs, in the interest of the team, asks if there is any specific items needed testing. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<Hobbsee> also, are we supposed to be testing anything specific in edgy at the moment?

<Riddell> testing: kubuntu-laptop-buttons, and the new power management applet

<Hobbsee> Riddell: gotchat.  k-l-b in repos?

<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, it's kmilo, and it should "just work"

<Riddell> also testing of this is welcome www.micoulou.info/kformat

<Riddell> it's a summer of code project

<Riddell> and if someone wants to package it for the guy he'd welcome that

<Riddell> note that it hasn't worked for me

<Riddell> also that with an incorrect click it may well format your hard drive

<imbrandon> is that that floppy thing ?

<Riddell> imbrandon: floppy and usb key formatter

Outcome: KMilo, Kubuntu-Laptop-Buttons, and Kformat (Warning, wrong click could format hard drive).

Kubuntu Edgy Eft Knot Releases - Knot 2 is pretty much complete, but for the next releases, we need content that is "Edgy", the bleeding edge stuff as reported in the original Edgy Eft announcement by sabdfl

Presented by: Richard Johnson (nixternal)

Richard Johnson, currently working on Kubuntu Edgy release notes, recommends that future releases contain packages and information that is "edgy," or bleeding edge, while referring to the original Edgy Eft announcement from Mark Shuttleworth. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

## This first portion is in reference to the release announcement for Dapper 6.06.1 ## 

<nixternal> Edgy Eft Knot Releases....

<nixternal> * Good job Riddell on posting the 6.06.1 LTS Released on Kubuntu.org as we are the only group out of all the *ubuntu's that let people know it is out, besides the Announcement ML.

<Riddell> maybe I should post to kubuntu-devel and kubuntu-users too

<nixternal> * OK, now where are the list of changes from 6.06 to 6.06.1?  If I am Joe Shmoe, the typical user, why should I download this and install it?  Why is it better then 6.06?

<nixternal> i can create a "Release" with that information if needed

<Riddell> the list of changes is in kamion's announcement

<nixternal> true...you and i know that, but joe shmoe doesn't

<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-August/000088.html

<nixternal> the typical user just sees it as something else to download because there isn't any more info about it, other than locations to download it

<seaLne> so effectivly all that should be happening is that people trying to download dapper you get .1?

<Riddell> seaLne: yes

<Riddell> so the 6.06 on the mirrors is now a link to 6.06.1

<seaLne> so it shouldn't really be big news

<Riddell> it's not

<nixternal> i think there needs to be a write up for the public to view that tells them about the release, why it was released, and what was fixed and what not

## This starts the Edgy Eft Portion ##

<nixternal> First things first. The codename of Dapper+1 will be:   The Edgy Eft

<nixternal> And here's why. Edgy is all about cutting edge, perhaps bleeding edge,

<nixternal> brand new code and infrastructure. It will be the right time to bring in

<nixternal> some seriously interesting but definitely edgy new technologies which

<nixternal> lay the groundwork for the next wave of Ubuntu development.

<nixternal> that is what sabdfl said in his announcement concerning edgy eft

<nixternal> we all know that, and more and more people are reading it, and wondering what the KDE guys are doing to make this stand true

<nixternal> like you, i get tired of the AIX/GLX/Compiz stuff at times...but they want to know

<nixternal> * OK, some common gripes and questions towards the release notes for Edgy Knot2, and probably the same for future releases:

<nixternal> 1.)  What is bleeding edge about KDE 3.5.4?   KDE 4 is bleeding edge for us, and there is nothing we can do until Edgy+1. People are starting to understand that.

<nixternal> 2.) OK, KDE 3.5.4 is signifagant for Edgy Knot 2 w/o a doubt, but what else is "edgy" in the release?

<nixternal> * This is the one that keeps getting asked towards the Kubuntu release for Knot 2.

<nixternal> * Ubuntu & Gnome have some new cool toys that I have observed (thats about all I know of them though)

<nixternal> 3.) I think you see where I am going with those, anyways, we need to start selling these releases, and the coolness factor will definitely help.

<Hobbsee> nixternal: g-p-m and k-l-b stuff.

<Hobbsee> nixternal: and updated packages

<Hobbsee> like kopete, amarok, etc

<Riddell> nixternal: have you read sabdfl's blog on this?

<nixternal> yes Riddell, and I have been pulling inspiration from it as well

<sebas> KDE is frozen, that's true, but we have cool new stuff in amarok, for example.

<Riddell> I've always said that edgy won't be a major change for kubuntu, since kde 4 isn't happening yet at the distro level

<sebas> Digikam is also rocking, in general: we could concentrate more on apps than on infrastructure.

<nixternal> I hope you guys understand, KDE is me, I want Kubuntu to be the baddest release and have the most rockin' following, and kick arse release stuff..we need to sell it in a way..get people excited

<sebas> Not that GNOME has too much staggering stuff to offer

<nixternal> sebas: +1 if it is rockin' and jammin ;)

<Riddell> nixternal: what have you observed in gnome?

<toma>  nixternal: digikam 0.9 is experimental, we can add that ;-)

<nixternal> the telepathy stuff off hand

<nixternal> im trying to remember the others, as I don't play iwth gnome ;)

<nixternal> only kde and kde edu

<nixternal> cool toma, it will get added

<nixternal> everyone one of you have provided to the release notes, and it kicks arse in my view, but we need some killer stuff to spark excitement..that is about it ;)

<nixternal> you guys have anything you think/want added to the releases that are, in Riddell's words, "Rocking" or "Groovy", message me the information, poke me, add a == Header == on the wiki and i will get on it

<nixternal> i can put my kflickr package on there ;)

<Hobbsee> Riddell: there are plans for a 3.5.5?

<Riddell> Hobbsee: there are, sometime next month

<nixternal> how about a "screencasting" package for kubuntu, that might spark people in contributing "video" howto's/tutorials, or their cool setup...maybe spark a new thing to contribute tot he community

Outcome: New exciting packages available and ready to be reviewed for Edgy. New screenshots and write ups to come.

K3b breakage bug# 54828

Presented by: Kenny Duffus (seaLne)

Kenny Duffus brings to the table an issue with K3b, and refers to https://launchpad.net/bugs/54828. The following is an abridged portion of the agenda item communications on IRC: 

<seaLne> k3b and cdrecording is currently broken in edgy

<seaLne> i think bug #54828 is the problem

<Ubugtu> Malone bug 54828 in cdrtools "cdrecord fails to burn cd's" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54828

<imbrandon> yea it has to do the the recorder perm;s in /dev

<imbrandon> it works if you kdesu it

<seaLne> no it dosen't

<seaLne> it seems to be kernel permissions not file permissions

<sebas> Aye, again kernel and cdrecord devs fighting each other, it seems?

<Lure> seaLne: I have seen a story on LWN that Linus have put some SCSI command filtering in...

<seaLne> cdrom members can erase cds quite happily from cdrecord can't burn

<sebas> What kernel will edgy ship with?

<Hobbsee> .17

<seaLne> sebas: possibly google seems to suggest that it requires special permissions which presumably were available previously

<Lure> seaLne: might be this: http://lwn.net/Articles/193516

<allee> Lure: yes

<Riddell> I wonder if gnome is affected, I assume it must be

<seaLne> yep scsi_ioctl was what i had narrowed it down to

<seaLne> anything using cdrecord is broken

<seaLne> and possibly any other way of writing cds

<toma> i assume that will be fixed before release

<Lure> seaLne: but probably just for specific writers...

<seaLne> i have tried on different writers and so have the various bug reporters

<seaLne> i have tried on different writers and so have the various bug reporters

<Riddell> I'm sure I didn't have a problem burning CDs with knot 1

<Lure> btw, is k3b 1.0 planned to be released before edgy release?

* Hobbsee had to run as root to make it work

<seaLne> no plans afaik

<imbrandon> yea i had to kdesu it to make it work

<imbrandon> but it worked

<seaLne> i have done some packaging of 1.0pre1

<seaLne> had to remove a few patches as they are now fixed

<Lure> seaLne: you have repo of pre1?

<seaLne> http://geeksoc.org/~kd/k3b/ i'm having some problems with compiling on my machine but Hobbsee says she managed it

<seaLne> so if anyone could build that for i386 i'd like a copy :)

<seaLne> if not let me know if it dosen't build

<imbrandon> if Hobbsee built it its likely in my /var/cache/pbuilder/result as she builds on my machines alot

<Hobbsee> i've got copies of it on voyager, imbrandon

<seaLne> i'm not suggesting 1.0pre1 should go into edgy tho as there is not plan as yet for release of 1.0

<imbrandon> seaLne: i'll upload it a bit later and shoot you a link if its in my ..../result dir

<toma> why not?

<seaLne> "This preview is not intended for daily use but for testing and bug hunting"

<Riddell> I'll upgrade to edgy tomorrow on my CD burning machine and give it a shot, if it breaks I'll be poking benc lots until it's fixed

<seaLne> right, that was sort of what i was wanting to sort out at the meeting, what would happen now

<toma> seaLne: i expect a bit more from a preview release

<seaLne> toma: well as i haven't actually managed to run it yet i'm not in a situation to even guess yet and not being able to write cds anyway dosen't help

<Riddell> seaLne: I can make noises about it at the next distro meeting

<seaLne> thanks

Outcome: Further testing to prove it is broken 100% will be completed. Riddell stated that he will discuss it further at the next distro meeting.

Conclusion

  • Meeting adjourned at 23:20 UTC, by Meeting Chair, Jonathan Riddell

Further discussion took place after all of the agenda items were completed. Let it be known the last agenda item concerning the "Edgy Media backend.... Are we going back to gstreamer?" wasn't covered due to Benjamin Long not being present. However it was made known that Amarok doesn't use gstreamer at all.

Other discussions concerned Sarah Hobbs (Hobbsee) being announced the new Kubuntu Community Manager. This position will provide further organization of the Kubuntu team. In Sarah's first order as the KCM, she recommended that all developers provide her a list of packages they plan on maintaining for Kubuntu Edgy+1. This will probably make its way as a wiki page in the near future. If you are interested in maintaining a Kubuntu package for the next release after Edgy, please contact Sarah Hobbs in #kubuntu-devel on IRC (Freenode) or via email, hobbsee at ubuntu dot com <hobbsee AT ubuntu DOT com>.

Kubuntu/Meetings/Minutes/2006-08-10 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:59:58 by localhost)