2009-06-09
Agenda
Topics discussed at this meeting:
Minutes
UDS BugSquad related topics
TBD
LP Improvements for triagers
TBD
Open Discussion
Agree on next meeting date and time
Log
17:00 thekorn hi
17:00 bcurtiswx-mini so, who runs these meetings? :P
17:00 andresmujica last time was me!
* bcurtiswx-mini sits down then
17:01 andresmujica so if anyone steps up, i can try it for the second time
17:01 BUGabundo hey everyone.
* BUGabundo waves
17:01 andresmujica o/
17:01 bdmurray Hi
17:01 bcurtiswx-mini \o/ whats that supposed to be
17:01 andresmujica ok, let's start this
17:01 BUGabundo 1st time on this meeting so be gentle. thanks
17:01 andresmujica (i supposed me waving :)
17:01 bcurtiswx-mini i got yelled at when i wasn't here last time :P
17:01 andresmujica #startmeeting
* charlie-tca waves
17:01 pedro_ heya
17:02 pace_t_zulu o/
17:02 andresmujica holly gosh, shouldn't the bot respond to startmeeting?
17:02 bcurtiswx-mini idk, didn't for the server meeting
17:02 bcurtiswx-mini <shrugs>
17:02 pace_t_zulu mootbot is MIA
17:02 andresmujica ok.
17:03 charlie-tca it should, but maybe it is broke again
17:03 andresmujica ok, np. So this is our second meeting, and the proposed topic is at
17:03 andresmujica https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
17:03 andresmujica and the last minutes from the previous meeting are at
17:03 andresmujica https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2009-12-05
17:04 andresmujica first my apologies for emailing too late the reminder to the ML.. it didn{ t make it into the the newsletter, but anyway we're here so let's start
=== jussi01 is now known as jussio1
=== jussio1 is now known as Android
17:05 andresmujica [TOPIC] UDS BugSquad related topics -- BugSquad UDS atteendes
=== Android is now known as Tuhina
17:06 andresmujica anyone of the attendes want to share some of the highlits from UDS related to bugsquad?
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* bcurtiswx-mini pokes maco
17:07 bcurtiswx-mini well i know maco went to UDS.. but i think shes @ work
17:08 BUGabundo or school
17:08 BUGabundo anyone else?
17:08 bdmurray There were quite a few things I found interesting
17:09 bdmurray making the greasemonkey triaging scripts into extensions and available in a PPA
17:09 bdmurray a Bug Squad mentoring program
17:09 bdmurray an Ubuntu Reviewers team for patches attached to bug reports
17:10 bdmurray and some discussions about how to write apport package hooks and what packages to target
17:10 bcurtiswx-mini to the Bug Squad mentoring program... i think we mentor each other in the bugs channel pretty well
17:10 bcurtiswx-mini how would a mentoring program be different?
17:11 bdmurray We talked about making it a bit more structured to make it easier for people to find a mentor and to help people are who are shy.
17:11 andresmujica bdmurray: this is the spec right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SpecialisationWithinBugcontrol
17:12 bdmurray andresmujica: that's right
17:12 bdmurray pedro_: anything more to add on that?
17:13 bcurtiswx-mini i like the idea, i just ask a ton of questions :). how can i help build the spec up.. i can come up with a few ideas
17:13 pedro_ well what bdmurray said is mostly why we started to do the mentoring program
17:13 pedro_ that's based on the experience of previous months/years
17:14 pedro_ we clearly need a more defined and structured way to start helping new triagers who want to be involved in the bugsquad
17:14 pedro_ doing triage, participating in our activities, meetings, decisions, etc
17:14 bcurtiswx-mini agreed
17:14 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: we are still drafting the spec at this point in time
17:14 pedro_ the bugsquad is not just about doing triage and that's it, people need to get involved in the team as well
17:15 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: understood, i would love to help build this "program" up
17:15 andresmujica i' ve got a doubt about bugsquad membership, it would be open for everyone or it was decided to ask for some prereq ?
17:15 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: great! feel free to add any thoughts to the end of the Discussion section of the spec
17:17 pedro_ andresmujica: IIRC we agreed on having it now as a close team and the requirements for join there would be: sign the coc and read the how to triage guide
17:17 bdmurray I think we should talk about that a wee bit more, the 1st item is easy to verify the second hard.
17:18 bcurtiswx-mini similar to bug control... they e-mail the list answering pre-made questions about the triage guide ?
17:18 andresmujica yeap, maybe some questions as bug-control application
17:18 pedro_ right, maybe we could ask a few easy questions related to that guide
17:19 charlie-tca At least that would let them know the guides exist.
17:19 bdmurray I think that would add a lot overhead and might lean the other way
17:20 bdmurray verify coc is signed, approve and in approval notification send links to triaging documentation and mentoring program
17:20 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: ok, what about a "trial" period, like bug control
17:21 bcurtiswx-mini after 90 days ping a bug squad admin to update the membership
17:21 bdmurray sounds good to me
17:21 andresmujica and check bugs triaged in that period
17:22 bdmurray I think that'd be part of the mentoring program
17:22 andresmujica should a new member must have a mentor?
17:22 bdmurray No, I don't think so
17:23 bcurtiswx-mini so , by request, a mentor?
17:24 bdmurray If I understand correctly - new members could request a mentor yes
17:24 bdmurray But it would not be required
17:24 bcurtiswx-mini i think it may be help to have bug squad newbies build up their wiki pages and review that upon 90 days are up
17:25 bcurtiswx-mini put a couple triaged bugs in there?
17:26 charlie-tca We make them do that to join bug-control, I would think to stay in bug-squad it should not be the same.
17:26 bdmurray Reviewing the bug control applications takes a lot of time, but maybe we can make a streamlined simplified process for the Bug Squad
17:27 bdmurray charlie-tca: I agree
17:27 andresmujica the point is that bugsquad needs a lot of members that can do a good triage work, so with mentoring and some commitment to be members they can grow and get more involvement.
17:27 bdmurray Anyway, we can discuss this more in the spec / on the mailing list
17:27 andresmujica yeap.
17:27 hggdh perhaps one way is to have mentors assigned to newbies
17:28 hggdh b.g.o does something similar, at least with evo
17:28 andresmujica there were some more topics at uds that worth mentioning, kernel bug handling, Desktop Bug workflow and Symptom based bug reporting
17:29 micahg I think mentoring helped me get acclimated faster
17:30 andresmujica as the mentoring program is so new and it's a volunteer work, i believe we can let it move and it would reacht the point were new members can be assigned to a mentor..
17:31 andresmujica if needed..
17:31 bdmurray Right, I've some concern about the quantity of mentees versus mentors
17:32 bcurtiswx-mini ask for volunteers in the two ML's ? its going to be difficult to coordinate best times to meet too.. since were from all around the world
17:32 bcurtiswx-mini i'd recommend assigning people from the same time zones.. or close time zones
17:33 pedro_ bcurtiswx-mini: that's the idea, yes
17:33 hggdh the issue is mentoring is a voluntary action, right now. We, er, mentor by answering questions on IRC. Perhaps stress IRC presence?
17:34 andresmujica ok, as the time moves, i'd propose to discuss that remaining points in the ML, and as the spec is being drafted it surely can be greatly improved.
17:34 pace_t_zulu hggdh: +1
17:35 andresmujica about the kernel bug handling, i believe it's important to note that a bug bankrupcy was discussed, as the high volume of kernel bugs (around 5000) is really hard to manage, and is not feasible to triage them all and solved
17:36 BUGabundo 5k?
17:36 andresmujica https://wiki.ubuntu.com/specs/KernelKarmicBugHandling
17:36 micahg https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
17:36 BUGabundo that's what the kernel team gets for prefering to have all kernel bug filed in separate
17:36 andresmujica so the kernel team is discussing what should be the best path of action...
17:37 micahg well, I"m sure that at least 20% are from old kernels if not more
17:37 andresmujica yeap,
17:38 hggdh so. What can we do about that?
17:38 micahg I would suggest getting rid of any bug not touched before hardy was released
17:38 bcurtiswx-mini kernel hug day?
17:39 micahg just mark invalid
17:39 andresmujica probably be aware of the issue and check the kernel bug policies page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
17:39 micahg in case someone has a real issue, they can reopend
17:39 bdmurray I'd rather people focus on kernel bugs coming in today, tomorrow, the next day, rather than the old crufty stuff
17:39 charlie-tca micahg: what would you do with dapper, which is still supported on servers for two years?
17:40 pedro_ bcurtiswx-mini: the team is organizing kernel hug days almost every Tuesday since a few weeks ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/BugDay
17:40 micahg charlie-tca: it doesn't even show up in the versions provided
17:40 pedro_ in fact there's one today
17:40 charlie-tca That makes it more wrong, then
17:40 bcurtiswx-mini pedro_: maybe have them announced on the bug squad list?
17:41 andresmujica http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090609.html
17:41 bdmurray charlie-tca: the dapper bugs are reported about linux-source-2.6.15
17:41 ogasawara unless a dapper bug is an omg kittens are dieing or a security fix it's likely Won't Fix
17:42 charlie-tca bdmurray: my point was you can't just invalid a bug because it is before hardy. It could be valid against dapper
17:42 ogasawara and the kernel bug day announcement was sent to ubuntu-qa, ubuntu-bugcontrol, kernel-team, and ubuntu-bugsquad
17:42 hggdh ogasawara, then we *could* close these as wont fix, correct?
17:42 ogasawara hggdh: in my opinion, yes
17:43 hggdh OK. Anyone against?
17:43 charlie-tca thanks for clearing that, ogasawara
17:43 bdmurray Again I think closing old bugs is less useful than triaging new bugs
17:43 andresmujica some magic script can do it instead of us..
17:43 ogasawara as for closing old stale kernel bugs, I've got some scripts I'm going to run to clear them out
17:43 hggdh bdmurray, I agree, but there's still the reporter needing some sort of ACK
17:44 BUGabundo hggdh: just one Q: how about those that remain past the old release, and are not identified as such ?
17:44 micahg bdmurray: I agree also, but it can be mentally disheartening to see such a large number of bugs in a package and never seem to make decent headway
17:44 hggdh BUGabundo, this is actually a question of quantity vs quality. There is only so much we can do
17:45 BUGabundo I know
17:45 bdmurray True but it'd be better for the release as a whole if we worked with the "live" bug reports and work on getting those fixed
17:45 hggdh and a nicely written automagic script can tell the reporter to reopen if needed
17:46 BUGabundo I guess the closing message could/will ask the subscribers to reopen if they persist
17:46 micahg indeed bdmurray, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that
17:46 hggdh +1. I understand ogasawara will run his magic on the old bugs
17:47 micahg btw, I just ran a search for dapper in the linux package and came up with 144 bugs
17:47 hggdh ogasawara, sorry. *her* magic.
17:48 ogasawara hggdh: :)
17:48 ogasawara for those interested in helping triage, I recently updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies
17:49 micahg OT - Just got a compliment on the apport-collect command from a user
17:49 ogasawara note the added importance of having bugs test with the mainline kernel build as well
17:49 bcurtiswx-mini ogasawara: is that in the "debugging proceedures" page?
17:49 ogasawara bcurtiswx-mini: I'll have to check. if not I'll add it.
17:49 bdmurray The DebuggingProcedures page could use some reorganizing
17:50 bcurtiswx-mini yeah, and additions
17:50 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: additions as in links to existing pages or new pages added?
17:51 andresmujica another interesting discussion held at UDS was the Symptom Based Bug Reporting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/SymptomBasedBugReporting, that would be an extension to apport hooks that would try to get some common information about the issue by asking questions to the reporter... mr pitti is working on that ...
17:51 bdmurray andresmujica: he blogged about it today or yesterday
17:52 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: well, idk of all the wiki pages we have on debugging this and that. but the list seems small from the different amount of packages we have.. so if i don't find a debugging page, i resort to finding basic triage info.. and i am afraid its not enough for devs and to mark as triaged
17:52 bdmurray oh, that was the interactive hook
17:53 andresmujica ohh, that's great!! http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/interrogation-with-apport-hooks-qt-developer-needed/
17:54 andresmujica so, we've got 5 more minutes...
17:55 bcurtiswx-mini yay for going to the 2nd discussion topic :P, to which i have no info for anyways
17:55 andresmujica LP Improvements for triagers -- bcurtiswx
17:55 andresmujica hehe
17:56 bcurtiswx-mini that was more of a question, than a "i know this" thing
17:56 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: well, we did have a meeting with the launchpad bugs team at UDS
17:56 andresmujica there were some talks about it at UDS... duplicate bug handling, related bugs, what else?
17:56 bdmurray some of the things we talked about were negated tag searching, bug nominations
17:56 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: about that greasemonkey made FF extension.. sounds like a great idea
17:57 bdmurray searching for bugs with bzr branches, displaying patches in bug listings
17:57 bcurtiswx-mini what about running apport collect on all bugs reported against jaunty and karmic when reporters use the launchpad page to report
17:58 bcurtiswx-mini is that possible?
17:58 hggdh you mean forcing code on the local machine?
17:58 bdmurray Instead we are trying to get people to just report bugs via ubuntu-bug / Report a Problem
* hggdh apriori is against
17:58 bdmurray Additionally with the symptom based bug reporting this will make much more sense
17:58 bcurtiswx-mini hggdh: not forcing, lol.. you'd ask first and get their permission through a form
17:58 bdmurray er, be much more beneficial
17:59 andresmujica ok, time is rover...
17:59 hggdh <sigh/>
18:00 andresmujica so, i' ll summarize to the mailing list..
18:00 bcurtiswx-mini well, bdmurray suggested using the ML more... maybe a good idea ;-) since we've got tons to talk about still
18:00 andresmujica yeap
18:00 andresmujica hope it was benefical to every one!
18:00 andresmujica thanks for the assistance
18:00 andresmujica #endmeetingBugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2009-06-09 (last edited 2009-07-07 15:57:20 by adsl190-2489057)