= Ubuntu Studio Packaging Team Meeting 18th March 2007 =

Points in the agenda

 * Which internal communication technology is the team going to use.
 * Date and time of the meetings.


=== Log ===

mar 18 13:48:25 <luisbg>	t   h   e       m   e   e   t   i   n  g       i   s       s   t   a   r   t   i   n   g 

mar 18 13:48:36 <jussi01>	:D

mar 18 13:48:37 <luisbg>	OK guys...

mar 18 13:48:40 <luisbg>	let me talk for a sec

mar 18 13:48:54 <luisbg>	plz don't interrupt until the "voice" has been given

mar 18 13:49:17 <luisbg>	I'm going to quote right now a mail _MMA_ sent to all of us

mar 18 13:49:57 <luisbg>	"We need to work more on knowing our roles and keeping others abreast of

mar 18 13:49:57 <luisbg>	what we're doing if we have to be away. If your involvement in the

mar 18 13:49:57 <luisbg>	project is too much for anyone to handle then we should talk about it

mar 18 13:49:57 <luisbg>	and find a solution. We need to be realistic."

mar 18 13:50:23 <luisbg>	to which my reply was...

mar 18 13:50:25 <luisbg>	"To me it seams like the same old problem once again... COMMUNICATION.

mar 18 13:50:25 <luisbg>	Obviously people will have to be away of the project now and then, but this will only be a problem if they don't communicate that with the rest, and the rest don't know what they are waiting for/should do about it.

mar 18 13:50:25 <luisbg>	"

mar 18 13:51:10 <luisbg>	so the first topic in hand is how can we improve the communication of the packaging team?

mar 18 13:51:21 <luisbg>	the floor is for your ideas

mar 18 13:51:27 <rexbron>	This is a good first step

mar 18 13:51:41 <rexbron>	So I would advocate short reports

mar 18 13:52:16 <rexbron>	on the progress of the packages, any problems encountered and a realistic apraseal of deadlines

mar 18 13:52:18 <TheMuso>	Have you gusy considered having regular team meetings like what the other Ubuntu teams like MOTU, core dev have?

mar 18 13:52:26 <tsmithe>	luisbg, as you said; meetings are important. like this one. TheMuso, there you go

mar 18 13:52:38 <tsmithe>	i also think we need stricter deadlines

mar 18 13:52:40 <luisbg>	TheMuso, this is the first of what I would like to be frequent meetings

mar 18 13:52:45 <tsmithe>	that would tie into rexbron's progress reports

mar 18 13:52:53 <luisbg>	the frequency of this meetings and date of them will be the last point to discuss

mar 18 13:53:08 <luisbg>	ok...

mar 18 13:53:13 <TheMuso>	righto

mar 18 13:53:14 <ttoine>	the problem is not doing reports, but more were to let them available to concerned people

mar 18 13:53:18 <luisbg>	let's follow the reports idea...

mar 18 13:53:24 <luisbg>	where would this be published?

mar 18 13:53:24 <rexbron>	I am not for very strict reports, but a quick sentance or two update on status

mar 18 13:53:50 <tsmithe>	i don't think these reports should be "published", necessarily. that would quickly get left behind, i feel

mar 18 13:53:50 <rexbron>	luisbg: for interal stuff, ML

mar 18 13:54:01 <tsmithe>	i think they should just be explained at the meetings

mar 18 13:54:02 <ttoine>	it was my idea, luisbg : making a specific "masked" part for developpers on the ubuntustudio forum.

mar 18 13:54:22 <rexbron>	That would also work

mar 18 13:54:33 <TheMuso>	A wiki sounds more practicle to me.

mar 18 13:54:34 <ttoine>	i am not sure that mailing list is the best, because mails are sorted by date, not by subject and discussions

mar 18 13:54:37 <tsmithe>	i would really appreciate deadlines, that tie in with others' work

mar 18 13:54:42 <TheMuso>	Its not hard to set somewhere up on the Ubuntu wiki if necessary.

mar 18 13:54:46 <luisbg>	I like ttoines idea of the "masked" part of the forum

mar 18 13:54:52 <tsmithe>	ttoine, my emails are sorted by subject and discussion

mar 18 13:54:59 <rexbron>	it need to be 1) searchable 2) no a large amount of new infrastructure 3) maybe private

mar 18 13:54:59 <tsmithe>	and also by date

mar 18 13:55:13 <luisbg>	I have thought about the wiki

mar 18 13:55:14 <rexbron>	append an 's' on need

mar 18 13:55:28 <_MMA_>	As for "a quick sentence or two" That was the reason for the "Status" part in the "ToPackage" WIKI.

mar 18 13:55:30 <luisbg>	for me the wiki only has one concern... do we want to have this info in the open?

mar 18 13:55:54 <tsmithe>	yes

mar 18 13:55:55 <_MMA_>	luisbg: I dont think its been a issue thus far.

mar 18 13:55:56 <luisbg>	_MMA_, I know... I think we should keep using this... well, actually using it much more

mar 18 13:55:56 <tsmithe>	why not?

mar 18 13:56:11 <TheMuso>	In the open is a good thing IMO.

mar 18 13:56:12 <rexbron>	_MMA_: by making it part of a weekly meeting, we would hopefully encourage regular particpation

mar 18 13:56:17 <tsmithe>	_MMA_, yes. but that wasn't updated as it should have been as the *pressure* was not there

mar 18 13:56:19 <_MMA_>	People have only messed with couple of pages.

mar 18 13:56:32 <_MMA_>	tsmithe: Thats on you guys.

mar 18 13:56:36 <tsmithe>	meetings and deadlines give pressure

mar 18 13:56:45 <luisbg>	the key point here is that the infraestructure is there... simply it wasn't used

mar 18 13:56:59 <ttoine>	actually, i am not of course a programmer. but i used to work a lot on "free" oriented projects in france, such like jamendo.com of framasoft.net. forums are the best to organize work, wiki to create documentation, etc.... we stopped use mailing list because with spam, etc..., there was too much stuff to organize. 

mar 18 13:57:25 <luisbg>	ttoine, we don't have forum yet

mar 18 13:57:28 <luisbg>	and wiki is good enough

mar 18 13:57:38 <ttoine>	luisbg: we have, but it is closed

mar 18 13:57:40 <rexbron>	So would it be better put in a look don't touch part of the forums?

mar 18 13:57:46 <luisbg>	IMHO the place were we publish is the least important...

mar 18 13:57:53 <TheMuso>	Forum threads  don't provide for good collaboration.

mar 18 13:58:00 <luisbg>	the important thing is that people have to communicate more using this

mar 18 13:58:04 <tsmithe>	i think i tend to disagree about the forums. i like mailing lists: it's an issue of "push" vs "pull". i want the information to come to me (mailing lists) as opposed to me going to get that info (forums)

mar 18 13:58:16 <TheMuso>	tsmithe: hear hear.

mar 18 13:58:36 <luisbg>	ok... is there a way of making a wiki inform you everytime a page is changed?

mar 18 13:58:40 <tsmithe>	yep

mar 18 13:58:42 <rexbron>	yes

mar 18 13:58:45 <_MMA_>	Im for better organizing the WIKI but any method you guys come up with is ultimately up to you to keep up with. The medium doesnt matter if you dont follow through.

mar 18 13:58:50 <tsmithe>	i "subscribed" to the "ToPackage" page

mar 18 13:58:51 <jussi01>	tsmithe, but a forum is great, you can have both, by subscribing to threads/forums

mar 18 13:59:14 <rexbron>	^ is also true

mar 18 13:59:15 <TheMuso>	Speaking from a point of view of someone involved with several Ubuntu related projects, having to go to a site just to fetch something takes the time you could have spent doing something else more productive

mar 18 13:59:18 <tsmithe>	jussi01, but when the "push" is enabled, it doesn't come in a structured form, rather a crippled version of a mailing list

mar 18 13:59:27 <luisbg>	my suggestion is using a wiki and all of us subscribing to it... making it a mix between mailing list and wiki

mar 18 13:59:32 <tsmithe>	and you then have to go somewhere to reply

mar 18 13:59:57 <luisbg>	OK people...

mar 18 14:00:01 *	_MMA_ sits back.

mar 18 14:00:02 <luisbg>	I take the floor again

mar 18 14:00:05 <luisbg>	before this gets chaotic

mar 18 14:00:32 <luisbg>	niiicee! you did get in silence (me feels like a middle school teacher on crack)

mar 18 14:00:35 <luisbg>	well...

mar 18 14:00:46 <luisbg>	ttoine, express your prefered choice and why

mar 18 14:01:18 <ttoine>	luisbg: why a forum ?

mar 18 14:02:11 <luisbg>	I don't like the forum idea... but this the chance to state YOUR opinion 

mar 18 14:02:16 <ttoine>	ok

mar 18 14:02:28 <luisbg>	let's all say what and why and then we vote and decide

mar 18 14:02:39 *	rexbron has to leave in 15 min, he once again applogises for being late

mar 18 14:02:51 <ttoine>	hum, wiki is a good thing, actually, but in my mind, is not very easy to find and link things well : no menu, etc...

mar 18 14:03:02 <ttoine>	forum are good for that kind of stuff

mar 18 14:03:22 *	tsmithe also hasto leave, unfortunately. got a date with a wholesaler

mar 18 14:03:28 <ttoine>	but only if people respect some rules, actually

mar 18 14:03:30 <luisbg>	tsmithe, wait

mar 18 14:03:38 <tsmithe>	not yet - but in 15 minutes :)

mar 18 14:03:46 <ttoine>	for exemple, you can start a thread by project/packaging

mar 18 14:03:47 <luisbg>	state your OPINION just after ttoine and then you can go ;)

mar 18 14:04:06 <ttoine>	at every step, you can add a comment to the thread

mar 18 14:04:20 <ttoine>	then, every one can see how is advanced something

mar 18 14:04:33 <ttoine>	discussion, help, etc... should be on another part of the forum

mar 18 14:04:45 <luisbg>	ok...

mar 18 14:04:48 <luisbg>	tsmithe, still there?

mar 18 14:04:51 <ttoine>	we worked like that on framasoft to design some tools, doc, etc..

mar 18 14:04:51 <tsmithe>	yep :)

mar 18 14:05:02 <luisbg>	your turn

mar 18 14:06:14 <rexbron>	...?

mar 18 14:06:18 <tsmithe>	i'm typing!

mar 18 14:06:23 <rexbron>	sorry

mar 18 14:06:34 <TheMuso>	Might be helpful if people have what they want to say ready.

mar 18 14:06:42 <tsmithe>	yeah

mar 18 14:07:19 <luisbg>	LOL... just right a few words and enter

mar 18 14:07:23 <luisbg>	doesn't matter

mar 18 14:07:27 <luisbg>	that sentences are not

mar 18 14:07:28 <tsmithe>	i feel that, as i stated above, mailing lists as a means of communication require much less "pull" of information. it also comes in in a structured, by date and thread, way. you can start a thread by clicking a button in your client, and typing, much like you'd do on a forum. the archives could be publically available, and thus later referred to, in a read-only format. these could then be referenced from a wiki, which also supports "p

mar 18 14:07:29 <tsmithe>	ull", but in rather the same, non-threaded, manner of a forum. one advantage is that anyone can put 
in a comment anywhere on the page, and the thread doesn't have to be linear.

mar 18 14:07:30 <luisbg>	all together

mar 18 14:07:52 <tsmithe>	it's easy to link pages together, and it's easy to provide a menu - although that does indeed have to be more manual

mar 18 14:08:59 <luisbg>	and your vote goes to?

mar 18 14:09:17 <tsmithe>	guess :) i tried to make it obvious!

mar 18 14:09:26 <rexbron>	we need a +1

mar 18 14:09:35 <_MMA_>	Just answer.

mar 18 14:09:39 <tsmithe>	+1 for mailing list in conjunction with wiki

mar 18 14:09:48 <_MMA_>	+1

mar 18 14:09:53 <luisbg>	LOL

mar 18 14:09:54 <luisbg>	ok

mar 18 14:10:02 <rexbron>	luisbg: may I present?

mar 18 14:10:06 <luisbg>	sure

mar 18 14:10:44 <ttoine>	mailing list are the oldest way, when it was expensive to have a weberver... i am not sure that it is still the best tool

mar 18 14:10:54 <rexbron>	My own opionion is that for _openness_ forums or a wiki are best, but for devel ease, I would go with a ML. Even with an archive it feels as though the disscussion is set in stone (read only bits)

mar 18 14:11:28 <rexbron>	so it is a matter of wither we want the _users_ to be able to comment on the future development of the project

mar 18 14:11:47 <_MMA_>	I will say Im completely against the use of the forums for our _management_. I think we should use it for brainstorming ideas with users but for active development its just too many voices.

mar 18 14:11:49 <luisbg>	rexbron, let me stop you on that

mar 18 14:12:01 <luisbg>	the forum is created with the idea of communicating users with us devs

mar 18 14:12:36 <luisbg>	rexbron, want to say anything more?

mar 18 14:12:52 <rexbron>	Other than, we must frequent the forums

mar 18 14:12:58 <rexbron>	they are not just a place for users

mar 18 14:13:13 <rexbron>	as _MMA_said, they are for dev user interation

mar 18 14:13:24 <luisbg>	exactly

mar 18 14:13:25 <rexbron>	and I feel that that does not happen with things like Ubuntuforums

mar 18 14:13:27 <tsmithe>	sorry to interject, but: what is the rest of the agenda? i have to go soon, and would like to know (if there is no agenda, then that's another issue in communication, and i'd like to have one next time :) )

mar 18 14:13:29 <ttoine>	actually i was speaking of a closed part of the forum, not public part

mar 18 14:13:42 *	_MMA_ still maintains HOW-TOs on Ubuntu forums and still posts daily.

mar 18 14:13:54 *	tsmithe hardly ever visits ubuntuforums these days

mar 18 14:14:03 <ttoine>	ok

mar 18 14:14:07 <ttoine>	i have to go

mar 18 14:14:10 <luisbg>	tsmithe, we have the assignment of art packages and decision of when this weekly meetings are going to be

mar 18 14:14:11 <rexbron>	_MMA_: That is more targeted towards the ubuntu-devs and core devs

mar 18 14:14:16 <tsmithe>	ok

mar 18 14:14:19 *	tsmithe must leave

mar 18 14:14:22 <luisbg>	rexbron, is your vote for ML + Wiki?

mar 18 14:14:26 <tsmithe>	luisbg, that's cool. i don't think i'm required then :)

mar 18 14:14:32 <_MMA_>	Im sure all here will have a presence on our forum. :)

mar 18 14:14:34 <rexbron>	+1 for ML+Wiki

mar 18 14:14:37 <tsmithe>	bye everyone, pm me any outcomes :)

mar 18 14:14:46 <rexbron>	same here

mar 18 14:14:47 <luisbg>	tsmithe, you cool with any moment in the week for the meetings or want to ask for anytime?

mar 18 14:14:47 <ttoine>	i will let programmers and packager speaking of what they want, you know my ideas

mar 18 14:14:52 <rexbron>	sorry once again

mar 18 14:15:00 <luisbg>	ok...

mar 18 14:15:09 <rexbron>	luisbg: I will accomdate you guys

mar 18 14:15:10 <tsmithe>	evenings, thursday and sunday are best

mar 18 14:15:13 <luisbg>	that makes 3 votes for ML + Wiki since mine also goes for that

mar 18 14:15:13 <tsmithe>	bye

mar 18 14:15:15 <wedderburn>	brb

mar 18 14:15:23 <ttoine>	bye, men

mar 18 14:15:35 <luisbg>	anyone want to say anything about our internal communication place?

mar 18 14:16:07 <TheMuso>	I believe that the ml is a good place for discussions that may be drawn out, and are complex.

mar 18 14:16:31 <TheMuso>	MOTU use their mailing list for such discussions, which also allows people who can't attend meetings to participate.

mar 18 14:16:38 *	wedderburn se ha marchado (Remote closed the connection)

mar 18 14:16:44 <luisbg>	TheMuso, that's very true

mar 18 14:16:52 <luisbg>	Mailing list for discussions

mar 18 14:16:59 <luisbg>	Wiki for more static info

mar 18 14:17:01 <TheMuso>	Then if it comes time to take a vote/decision, it can either be done on the ml, or the ml discussions can easily be referred to in a meeting.

mar 18 14:17:05 <luisbg>	one way info

mar 18 14:17:33 <luisbg>	TheMuso, there is a little problem

mar 18 14:17:42 *	ttoine (n=ttoine@sal69-2-82-241-217-159.fbx.proxad.net) ha abandonado #ubuntustudio-devel

mar 18 14:17:46 <luisbg>	I sent a mail two days ago asking when people wanted this meeting to happen

mar 18 14:17:49 <luisbg>	and got no replies

mar 18 14:18:11 <TheMuso>	Perhaps because it was decided on IRC?

mar 18 14:18:19 <TheMuso>	I don't know./

mar 18 14:18:25 <_MMA_>	I saw it.

mar 18 14:18:27 <TheMuso>	I am not always around in here when most of you guys are up and about

mar 18 14:18:32 <luisbg>	it was decided in IRC because the date was getting close

mar 18 14:18:33 <TheMuso>	I saw it as well.

mar 18 14:18:40 <luisbg>	and a decision HAD to be made

mar 18 14:18:48 <TheMuso>	Well perhaps at least half a week notice would be better.

mar 18 14:18:57 <luisbg>	OK

mar 18 14:18:57 <TheMuso>	If you ask people when they want to do it, it will never be decided.

mar 18 14:18:59 <luisbg>	we are going to do this

mar 18 14:19:18 <TheMuso>	Give a few times, people will choose, and which ever one is voted for the most wins.

mar 18 14:19:26 <_MMA_>	TheMuso: I actually tried that a while ago. :(

mar 18 14:19:27 <luisbg>	I'm going to send a mail with the last point in the agenda

mar 18 14:19:31 <_MMA_>	Didnt work.

mar 18 14:19:41 <TheMuso>	_MMA_: hmm ok.

mar 18 14:19:54 <luisbg>	I'm going to say that if nothing is decided 12 UTC sundays... is going to be the meeting time

mar 18 14:19:55 <TheMuso>	I am simply suggesting what I have seen done in the MOTU team.

mar 18 14:19:57 <_MMA_>	TheMuso: Asking about meeting times that is.

mar 18 14:20:01 <luisbg>	but if people want to change it... ask for it

mar 18 14:20:09 <TheMuso>	luisbg: I strongly suggest rotating times.

mar 18 14:20:12 <_MMA_>	+1

mar 18 14:20:21 <jussi01>	+1 for 12 utc sundays

mar 18 14:20:24 *	wedderburn (n=andrew@ppp194-10.static.internode.on.net) ha entrado en #ubuntustudio-devel

mar 18 14:20:35 <luisbg>	TheMuso, suggest it in the mail list too ok?

mar 18 14:20:46 <TheMuso>	Sure.

mar 18 14:20:55 <luisbg>	+1 for 12 utc too but...

mar 18 14:21:04 <luisbg>	let's hear about rotating times... explain it to us TheMuso 

mar 18 14:21:20 <_MMA_>	luisbg: Take it to the ML and in the end you and I will make command decisions.

mar 18 14:21:45 <luisbg>	_MMA_, unfortunately it seams like it's going to be that way

mar 18 14:22:09 <luisbg>	I just wanted to test the participation of people in the mailing list

mar 18 14:22:14 <TheMuso>	I'm happy to do that, as having to read scrollback is not always convenient, and people like ttoin disconnect anyway.

mar 18 14:23:21 <_MMA_>	TheMuso: We need to get the log back up. Ill talk to Joe about it.

mar 18 14:23:27 <TheMuso>	Right

mar 18 14:23:37 <luisbg>	_MMA_, what log?

mar 18 14:23:52 <_MMA_>	The channel log.

mar 18 14:24:02 <luisbg>	I'm going to post it in the wiki

mar 18 14:24:10 <TheMuso>	Have you guys also considered having meetings in #ubuntu-meeting, and advertising meeting times to the fridge calendar?

mar 18 14:24:19 <luisbg>	going to create a page with links to all the meetings

mar 18 14:24:40 <luisbg>	TheMuso, this meetings are of the ubuntu studio packaging team 

mar 18 14:24:47 <TheMuso>	luisbg: Yes.

mar 18 14:24:48 <TheMuso>	SO?

mar 18 14:24:51 <_MMA_>	TheMuso: Yes but I think we can just get a little more organized and then move there.

mar 18 14:24:51 <luisbg>	no need to make them that big

mar 18 14:25:00 <TheMuso>	_MMA_: Fair enough.

mar 18 14:25:08 <_MMA_>	(depending on the subject)

mar 18 14:25:10 <TheMuso>	luisbg: Even the smallest teams meet there.

mar 18 14:25:31 <TheMuso>	When the accessibility team meets, there is usually only three of us.

mar 18 14:25:41 <luisbg>	first let's get this meetings being serious

mar 18 14:25:43 <_MMA_>	:)

mar 18 14:25:45 <luisbg>	then we can meet there

mar 18 14:26:05 <luisbg>	raise your hand if you are online right now

mar 18 14:26:05 <TheMuso>	Ok ok, just trying to help.

mar 18 14:26:09 *	luisbg raises his hand

mar 18 14:26:24 *	TheMuso raises his hand.

mar 18 14:26:36 <_MMA_>	:)

mar 18 14:26:54 *	jussi01 raises his hand

mar 18 14:27:18 <luisbg>	since most of the people left...

mar 18 14:27:39 <luisbg>	bringing up the second point in the agenda isn't going to be possible

mar 18 14:27:46 <TheMuso>	I suggest we reschedule.

mar 18 14:27:46 <luisbg>	should we declare the meeting finished?

mar 18 14:27:51 <TheMuso>	Or do it all on the ml.

mar 18 14:28:04 <luisbg>	+1 to that TheMuso ;)

mar 18 14:28:52 <jussi01>	so... meeting over then?

mar 18 14:28:55 <_MMA_>	I have a rotation idea.

mar 18 14:29:11 <_MMA_>	Keep it Sunday but move the time.

mar 18 14:29:22 <TheMuso>	Thats a fair call.

mar 18 14:29:28 <luisbg>	move it in what direction?

mar 18 14:29:31 <_MMA_>	Do a early on week than 2 weeks later do a later one.

mar 18 14:29:36 <jussi01>	good idea

mar 18 14:29:45 <luisbg>	on 12utc and the other?

mar 18 14:29:52 <_MMA_>	Or weekly if you need weekly meetings.

mar 18 14:30:03 <_MMA_>	Up to you.

mar 18 14:30:12 <_MMA_>	Not my meeting. :)

mar 18 14:30:40 <luisbg>	_MMA_, LOL

mar 18 14:30:47 <luisbg>	it will be adressed to the mailing list

mar 18 14:30:52 <_MMA_>	:)

mar 18 14:31:09 <luisbg>	but...

mar 18 14:31:11 <luisbg>	on 12utc and the other?

mar 18 14:31:19 <luisbg>	later or earlier?

mar 18 14:31:24 <_MMA_>	later.

mar 18 14:31:47 <_MMA_>	Say after 17 UTC or something?

mar 18 14:31:57 <_MMA_>	Whats that for the Aussies?

mar 18 14:32:02 *	TheMuso winces.

mar 18 14:32:13 <_MMA_>	lol

mar 18 14:32:14 <TheMuso>	4 AM.

mar 18 14:32:20 <jussi01>	ouch

mar 18 14:32:28 <_MMA_>	Ok. 21 ia a real common time.

mar 18 14:32:33 <TheMuso>	Soon to become 3.

mar 18 14:32:45 <luisbg>	LOL

mar 18 14:33:00 <luisbg>	I declare the meeting finished unless somebody has something else to say

mar 18 14:33:15 <_MMA_>	I

mar 18 14:33:41 <_MMA_>	I say we #ubuntu-meeting where we can and the time works out and here for those times they dont.

mar 18 14:33:51 <TheMuso>	FOr me at least, even 20:00 is ok

mar 18 14:34:37 <luisbg>	ok

mar 18 14:34:54 <luisbg>	t   h   e       m   e   e   t   i   n   g       i   s       c     l   o   s     e   d