{{{ 09:01 Keybuk ok, 09:01 Keybuk mjg59: ping === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:01 Keybuk mdz has sent apologies, he's at the theatre tonight 09:01 Keybuk sabdfl is in asia, and I would be fired for making any implications about thai ladyboys 09:01 Keybuk uh ^L^L^L 09:01 Keybuk :D 09:01 sivang Keybuk: hehe === hunger [n=tobias@p54A623F9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [n=daniel@82.109.136.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:04 Keybuk hmm, no response from mjg59 ... will give him a few minutes === allee [n=ach@allee.exgal.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:05 mjg59 Hi === olemke [n=olemke@p5489426C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:06 Keybuk aha 09:06 Keybuk right === sivang this TB meeting is starting slow :) 09:06 Keybuk mjg59: got a whiskey ready? 09:06 mjg59 Not as yet 09:06 mjg59 I'll find one if it becomes necessary 09:06 Keybuk I have a beer, which I'm already part the way through 09:06 Keybuk so this should be a nice ride 09:06 Keybuk so let's get this show on the rode 09:06 Keybuk Core Developer Candidates 09:06 Keybuk jjmmma ? 09:07 Keybuk dsaa ? 09:07 Keybuk Kinnison ? 09:07 Keybuk debankur ? === Kinnison [n=dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:07 Keybuk none of those have applied for membership or motu, so will be rejected Kinnison: ah, just in time... you need to apply for 09:08 Keybuk ubuntu-members and ubuntu-dev before you can apply for ubuntu-core-dev 09:08 Kinnison Right 09:08 Stormx2 Hey! A meeting :P I'll just watch. 09:08 Kinnison so I need to do the wiki etc? 09:08 Keybuk right 09:08 Kinnison Okay, I'll do that next week === Kinnison goes back to soyuz 09:08 Keybuk ubuntu-members are considered by the Community Council 09:08 fabbione *cough* 09:08 Keybuk so you'll need to go before them 09:08 Kinnison thanks for the official info 09:09 Kinnison Keybuk: aye, thanks 09:09 lucas (next CC meeting is next tuesday) === Kinnison nods lucas Kinnison: I'll leave your application in the list 09:09 Keybuk though, rather than reject, seeing as you actually showed up :) 09:09 Kamion work with MOTU is usually considered favourably by the CC, by the way 09:09 Kamion although we know you anyway, which obviously helps :) 09:09 fabbione Kinnison FOR PRESIDENT! === sivang hugs Kinnison 09:09 Keybuk ok, Ubuntu Developers 09:10 mjg59 Daniel has plenty of code already in the archive, and he's worked well with existing members, so... 09:10 Keybuk lmanul ? 09:10 Kinnison Keybuk: sorry, I was working on some soyuz code and lost track of time 09:10 Kamion mjg59: yeah 09:10 Keybuk freeflying ? 09:10 sivang mjg59: lol 09:10 Keybuk batt ? 09:10 Keybuk anyone know Ivailo Ivanov ? 09:10 dholbach lmanul is in #ubuntu-desktop - I called him. 09:10 mjg59 dholbach: Thanks 09:11 Keybuk let's give him a few seconds 09:12 Riddell freeflying not on IRC, didn't discuss applying for membership with me as I remember 09:12 sivang ah, tb is approving membership now as well? 09:12 Keybuk no, cc does that 09:12 sivang ah , ok 09:13 Keybuk ok, let's carry on 09:13 Riddell memership to ubuntu-dev team I ment 09:13 Keybuk if lmanul comes in, we can deal with him then 09:13 Keybuk Riddell: you're up 09:13 mjg59 "deal with" 09:13 mjg59 Sounds ominous 09:14 Riddell Keybuk: this wasat the MOTU meeting and they referred it here 09:14 Keybuk ok, please take the floor; it's your agenda item 09:14 Riddell if a program is "GPL two or later" do we put a link in debian/copyright to the GPL symlink or the GPL-2 files 09:14 mjg59 Ha 09:14 Keybuk my immediate hunch is that Debian will deal with this far better than we will 09:14 Keybuk and that they're more paranoid about such things 09:14 Riddell policy didn't have anything much to say 09:14 mjg59 Yeah, this is something that's going to have to be dealt with in Debian 09:15 mjg59 It's not a problem we've really had before 09:15 Keybuk I don't think we should do anything different to them 09:15 Riddell I think MOTU just want something consitent 09:15 Keybuk we can certainly talk with them, but I think whatever they decide goes 09:15 mjg59 Since GPL3 doesn't exist yet, leaving it pointing at GPL2 now isn't an issue 09:15 Keybuk Riddell: do you want to lead the dialogue with appropriate Debian people? === lmanul [n=manu@dan75-4-82-239-58-38.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:15 Riddell Keybuk: I'd have no idea who they were 09:15 Keybuk debian-policy might be a start 09:15 mjg59 lmanul: Hi - we've just jumped ahead to the next agenda item, we'll come back to you in a minute === tseng [n=tseng@unaffiliated/tseng] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:16 Riddell could do Sure. I'd recommend discussing it in Debian for now, 09:16 mjg59 and then us (and all the other derivatives) following suit 09:16 Keybuk also debian-legal, as there may be implications, etc. 09:16 Keybuk mjg59: I agree === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:16 Riddell ok, I'll do that 09:16 mjg59 Riddell: Ok, cool 09:17 Keybuk cool, lmanul welcome! you've applied to join the MOTU? 09:17 lmanul Huh... I'm a bit surprised actually 09:17 Keybuk oh? 09:17 dholbach :-) 09:17 tseng i think i twas a dholbach recruiting scheme 09:17 lmanul dholbach: told me there was something going on here so I came in 09:17 Keybuk you clicked the "join the ubuntu-dev team" button in Launchpad 09:17 dholbach tseng: hahaha, lmanul just became member for his rocking work on the dekstop theme 09:18 dholbach s/theme/team 09:18 lmanul Woops 09:18 lmanul Did I made one extra click ? :-p 09:18 Keybuk lmanul: would you like to be considered for joining the team? :) 09:18 lmanul make 09:18 lmanul The MOTU Team ? 09:18 Keybuk indeed 09:18 lmanul Well, sure 09:18 tseng Keybuk: i havent seen any packaging experience from him to justify MOTUness 09:18 lmanul But, huh... 09:18 sivang wh wouldn't ? :) 09:18 Keybuk have you worked much with them yet? 09:18 lmanul I've never packaged anything :) 09:19 Keybuk certainly your UI work is familar to us all 09:19 lmanul Thanks :) ok, I suggest your next step if you wish to take it is 09:19 Keybuk to work with the MOTU on packaging work, using their REVU system and sponsored uploads 09:19 lmanul I'm not sure I have what it takes to become a MOTU... Do I ? 09:19 lucas lmanul: are you actually interested in joining MOTU ? 09:19 lucas (you are not forced too ;) 09:19 lmanul lucas Sure, I am interested 09:19 lmanul But I don't remember adding myself to any wiki list 09:20 Keybuk ok, then I suggest chatting to dholbach and ogra, etc. 09:20 lmanul Not sure I'm ready for that :) 09:20 lucas lmanul: it was on launchpad 09:20 lmanul All right lmanul: we use Launchpad to track applications; you 09:20 Keybuk must have clicked the "Join this team" button on the ubuntu-dev page 09:20 Keybuk that proposed you and added you to the agenda for this meeting :) 09:20 ogra lmanul, would be cool if you could direcly work on the packages with your patches ;) 09:20 lmanul Keybuk: That's possible, I didn't know ubuntu-dev = MOTU :) 09:20 lmanul ogra: Sure ! 09:20 ogra but i think a bit training is required ;) 09:20 Keybuk ok, we'll leave him in your delicate hands then 09:21 lmanul Ok, so I guess I'll get some packaging experience and come back after that ? :) 09:21 ogra :) 09:21 ogra yup 09:21 lmanul Sorry for disturbing the meeting :p 09:21 Keybuk no worries 09:21 mjg59 lmanul: No problem :) 09:21 Keybuk Riddell: you again by the looks of it 09:21 Riddell yo 09:21 Keybuk xine vs. gstreamer? 09:21 Riddell this was whether kubuntu dapper should ship with xine or gstreamer 09:21 Riddell breezy used gstreamer 0.8 09:21 Keybuk what do you think? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that Ubuntu should 09:22 mjg59 ship with gstreamer as the default video framework this time around... 09:22 Riddell but 0.8 is obsolete and amarok/kaffeine are not yet ported to gstreamer 0.10 09:22 ogra dapper uses gstreamer0.10 09:22 ogra so we'd have to support both for 3 years 09:22 Riddell shipping kubuntu dapper with an obsolete gstreamer for 3 years support isn't good 09:22 ogra yup 09:22 dholbach It'd be good if we had Test data on either of them. 09:23 ogra is xine a sane option to use instead ? my experience with xine is that it's not really any 09:23 Keybuk better than gstreamer until you add the non-free stuff and windows dlls other option is me porting kaffeine to gstreamer 0.10 09:23 Riddell (possible but will probably take lots of time) and hoping amarok gets ported in time 09:23 mjg59 Keybuk: gstreamer0.10 can't currently have those added 09:23 tseng Keybuk: compared to gst 0.10, I agree 09:23 Riddell and we have I believe a shippable xine in main now 09:23 mjg59 There isn't even an asf demuxer 09:23 ogra Riddell, sounds not like it could be done before feature freeze 09:23 Keybuk Riddell: xine is in universe right now 09:24 Riddell ogra: quite probably not 09:24 mjg59 Keybuk: libxine1 is in main 09:24 Keybuk so there are security and support implications 09:24 Keybuk ah libxine-main1 09:24 mjg59 Yeah 09:24 Keybuk sorry, I missed that 09:24 Riddell libxine-dev is main 09:24 Riddell and hoary has xine 09:24 Keybuk my initial gut would be to try and keep one sound/video framework through all of the derivatives if possible Riddell: Personally, I think you should make the decision based on functionality and achievability. 09:25 mjg59 Right now we're looking at supporting libxine and gstreamer for dapper, and nobody seems to be pushing for xine to be dropped. 09:25 Riddell Keybuk: yep, that's why I changed to gstreamer for breezy 09:25 mjg59 Riddell: gst0.8 is obviously not an option 09:25 Riddell it seems like a step backwards to go back to xine 09:25 Riddell but practicalities get in the way 09:25 mjg59 Keeping gst0.8 would mean supporting 3 media frameworks 09:26 mjg59 And 0.8 is pretty much dead upstream 09:26 Amaranth mjg59: completely dead 09:26 mjg59 Amaranth: Not entirely. Ronald has discussed providing some basic level of support. 09:26 Amaranth mjg59: i thought he was just going to get one last release out if we chose xine, there's not much work to do. What 09:27 lucas about trying to use gst 0.10 for 2 weeks and decide during the next TB meeting ? we could always switch back to xine by then. 09:27 ogra lucas, feature freeze is near 09:27 Riddell lucas: can't use gstreamer 0.10 for two weeks, the programs just are not ported 09:27 ogra lucas, Riddell already said it takes to long 09:27 sivang ogra: 23 feb right? 09:27 lucas I meant: try to work with upstream to get it ported in time ;) amarok may be out by the end of feb, kaffeine it seems 09:27 Riddell like I'd have to do myself, and i'm no expert in the area 09:28 ogra sivang, i cant tell from the top of my head 09:28 ogra sivang, but around this date ... 09:28 mjg59 Riddell: Realistically, if gst0.10 isn't an option, then go with xine. 09:28 ogra (release schedule will tell you ;) ) 09:28 lucas 23rd 09:28 lucas https://launchpad.net/people/bg+ Most of the GNOME stuff already uses gstreamer 09:28 dholbach internally - and that's not only rhythmbox and totem, it's gnome-media, gnome-applets, sound-juicer, ... 09:28 lucas rah 09:28 lucas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule === zul [n=chuck@CPE0006258ec6c1-CM000a73655d0e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:28 tseng to be clear are we talking about gst 0.10 for gnome and xine for kde? 09:28 mjg59 Riddell: There's no point in shipping a crippled desktop for the sake of consistency 09:28 mjg59 tseng: Yes 09:28 tseng or xine everywhere 09:29 Keybuk tseng: just considering kde at this point 09:29 mjg59 The former. I don't think anyone's discussed migrating gnome. 09:29 tseng mjg59: thanks. 09:29 ogra tseng, OMG 09:29 Riddell mjg59: I think that's what I'm hoping someone would tell me it's disappointing to go back to xine in various ways 09:29 Riddell but if that's what has to be done then it's the best thing 09:30 mjg59 Riddell: The other options are all worse I think this sort of thing is going to be an inevitable 09:30 mjg59 consequence of our release timing not being very in line with KDE's 09:31 dholbach How much work would xine as "Plan B" be? 09:31 Riddell dholbach: what would plan A be then? 09:31 ogra heh 09:31 dholbach Porting to gst0.10? 09:31 mjg59 dholbach: If the porting hasn't started, it's entirely unrealistic 09:31 ogra dholbach, i think its rather the other way around 09:31 mjg59 There's significant differences in the API 09:31 Amaranth dholbach: that'd be porting two large applications in less than a month === dholbach didn't check the API. 09:32 Riddell it's quite a change 09:32 lucas is sbody familiar with the work to do ? 09:33 Riddell lucas: there's a document for how to do it, but it's not trivial 09:33 mjg59 lucas: It is not realistic to do the ports in the time available 09:33 mjg59 Not if we want adequate testing 09:33 lucas okay 09:33 Amaranth yeah, shipping a broken amarok would not be good === Kinnison [n=dsilvers@haddenham.pepperfish.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] 09:33 Riddell so if xine isn't a problem to ship I think we'll go with that, and look at gstreamer 0.10 for dapper + 1 09:33 lucas so there's no choice, really :-) 09:33 Amaranth not really, no 09:33 mjg59 Riddell: I think that's the only realistic option. Does anyone disagree? 09:34 Riddell sorted, thanks all 09:34 Keybuk I agree 09:34 mjg59 Ok. Next item? 09:34 Keybuk next is lucas 09:34 lucas Repository of old source packages 09:34 lucas I summarized the issue on the Agenda 09:35 lucas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda ok, basically this is to solve the issue where MoM 09:35 Keybuk sometimes doesn't have the Debian base version to hand when doing a merge ? 09:35 lucas yup 09:35 Keybuk it's probably worth stating at this point that it's not an easy problem 09:36 lucas I'm not sure I understand where the problems are: it doesn't seem that difficult to me 09:36 Keybuk you need to keep a copy of every source package since the Debian base as well 09:36 Keybuk because you can't predict what the next Debian base version will be 09:36 Amaranth i thought this is what the morgue was for 09:36 Keybuk and the simple fact is it's hard to get every source package from Debian 09:36 ogra Amaranth, yes 09:36 Keybuk some of them are simply missing 09:36 ogra Amaranth, but the morgue ran out of space once ... 09:36 sistpoty Keybuk: is anything like this planned for LP? 09:37 Amaranth ogra: and now is completely dead, afaics 09:37 lucas Keybuk: how can source packages be missing from debian ? 09:37 Keybuk lucas: because the maintainer uploads -1 09:37 Keybuk then the next day uploads -2, -3, -4 and -5 09:37 Kamion ogra: different morgue 09:37 Keybuk only -5 will be published in the Debian FTP sites 09:37 Kamion it's the Debian morgue that matters here 09:37 ogra Kamion, ah 09:37 Keybuk -2, -3 and -4 will be missing 09:38 lucas ah, yes 09:38 Amaranth Keybuk: but we'd only end up using -1 or -5, right? 09:38 Keybuk Amaranth: that should be true, but it sometimes isn't 09:38 lucas but I see the system as : copy everything + expire what we no longer need 09:38 Kamion Amaranth: not necessarily, especially if the Debian and Ubuntu maintainers are the same 09:38 Kamion or if the Ubuntu maintainer pulls from incoming 09:38 Keybuk and the simple fact is we already do this 09:38 Amaranth hrm 09:38 Keybuk and actually do it in such a way that -2, -3 and -4 *are* available to us too 09:39 Keybuk and we still miss some sometimes 09:39 lucas having you investigated the reasons for this ? 09:39 lucas It seems that we miss a lot of them 09:39 Keybuk not fully 09:40 Keybuk it's not really something I've had time for 09:40 Keybuk we tend to fix mom at the start of each distro cycle 09:40 Keybuk and by the end it's not working well 09:40 Kamion perhaps time investigating why would be better spent than time duplicating the existing system ... 09:40 Kamion (to lucas) 09:41 Keybuk we used to use snapshot.debian.net as an archive of old debian packages 09:41 Keybuk but that crashed 09:41 lucas ok, but then, how can I help investigating this ? :) 09:41 Keybuk so we've since used a morgue published by the Debian FTP masters lucas: pick a package for which it picked an older 09:41 Keybuk version that it should, and try to find out when that version was published, and whether it was mirrored to Debian's mirrors, etc. === zyga [n=zyga@ubuntu/member/zyga] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:42 lucas Keybuk: is MoM's source available somewhere ? 09:42 Keybuk no, MoM is not open source 09:42 Keybuk mostly because it's very crap code 09:42 Keybuk and totally unfit for release to the world === Kamion tries to remember enough about the innards of katie to remember whether packages that are superseded while still in the accepted queue end up in the morgue 09:43 Kamion I'm sure they should ... 09:44 lucas Keybuk: could I have a copy of the code then ? so I could understand the inner workings better 09:44 Keybuk lucas: I'd have to talk to Mark about it, you may have to sign an NDA, etc. 09:44 Keybuk it's not that clever, it just downloads the packages and diffs them 09:44 Keybuk it's almost certainly not a mom bug 09:45 Keybuk but a problem at Debian's end 09:45 lucas opensourcing MoM would be great to enhance collaboration with debian 09:45 lucas since it would help make it more useful for debian maintainers too 09:45 lucas (is MoM in charge of generating "scott's patches" too ? 09:45 Keybuk no, a program called NDA does that 09:46 Keybuk tbh 09:46 Keybuk looking at the problem right now 09:46 Keybuk it's simply that Debian's morgue has run out of disk space again 09:46 lucas ok 09:46 Kamion /dev/cciss/c0d0p7 690834712 689351076 1483636 100% /org 09:46 Keybuk they only have up to 2005-11-07 published 09:47 Keybuk :p 09:47 Kamion so it has 09:47 Keybuk there we go then 09:47 lucas so, back to my initial proposal, it might still be a good idea to have our own morgue 09:47 Keybuk I'll make it a personal task to go speak to the Debian FTP master and arrange for another go 09:47 Kamion when does snapshot.d.n date back to? Kamion: dunno, I got bored of trying to find out 09:47 Keybuk because it still claims to have the files and just 404s them 09:48 Keybuk obviously this is all kinda moot since merge-fest is now over until the feisty cycle 09:48 lucas because doing MOTU work when you don't have the base version really is a PITA 09:48 Kamion it claims 2005/03/13 09:48 Kamion do mom/nda try snapshot.debian.net to see if it works? 09:48 Keybuk Kamion: no, not currently, because Python's urllib doesn't handle 404s :) 09:48 Kamion fixing that might help a lot 09:49 Amaranth urllib2? 09:49 Keybuk Amaranth: that was more complicated and less well documented 09:50 Amaranth Keybuk: sure, but urllib is also mostly dead 09:50 lucas using snapshot.d.n or the ftpmaster's morgue doesn't seem like a solution on the long term to me ... 09:50 Kamion seems like a perfectly good solution to me, actually 09:50 Kamion I mean, AIUI, we're basically rsyncing the Debian morgue locally, aren't we? 09:50 Keybuk mjg59: ? 09:51 Keybuk Kamion: pretty much, yes 09:51 lucas well, if it runs out of space regularly without use noticing 09:51 lucas there's no point in using it 09:51 Kamion there's no difference between that and "keeping our own morgue", other than acquisition method 09:51 Amaranth perhaps i way of marking ubuntu changes in the package itself could work? 09:51 Kamion once != regularly 09:51 Amaranth so you wouldn't need the original 09:51 lucas two times already 09:51 Kamion the last time MOM failed it was because snapshot.d.n broke 09:51 Kamion AIUI 09:52 mjg59 I'm afraid I don't know enough about MOM to have strong opinions on this 09:52 Keybuk Amaranth: that would require a new source format, etc. using two different sources should be adequate 09:52 Kamion redundancy, if Keybuk fixes the inability to handle 404s mjg59: big evil hacky python script, downloads three 09:52 Keybuk versions, mashes them together with diff and patch to make a fourth 09:52 Kamion well, two plus the various others that are already tried 09:52 mjg59 Keybuk: Yeah 09:52 Keybuk it's nowhere near as clever or useful as everyone thinks it is 09:53 Amaranth three versions? 09:53 Keybuk Amaranth: Current Ubuntu, Current Debian, Common Base 09:53 Amaranth oh, new debian, ubuntu, original debian 09:54 lucas Keybuk: couldn't you talk with mark about opensourcing MoM and NDA ? 09:54 lucas so other people could work on improving them 09:54 Keybuk lucas: it's not so much a Mark issue, it's a me issue 09:54 Keybuk I seriously don't believe the code is any kind of fit state to release 09:54 lucas I didn't talk about release 09:54 Keybuk releasing implies support 09:54 lucas just put it in bzr somewhere 09:54 Keybuk it implies accepting patches 09:55 ajmitch it implies people asking 'wtf?' about parts of the code imo having MoM reports at hand is a nice addon but not 09:55 sistpoty absolutely necessary to do merges; but I guess that many other MOTU's think different about that. 09:55 lucas so it's better to have a not-so-good MoM ? 09:55 sivang Keybuk: maybe this could be rewritten from scratch ? ;-) 09:55 Keybuk lucas: I don't really see how it's useful to anyone either, tbh 09:55 Keybuk it's full of very Ubuntu-specific coe 09:55 Keybuk like filing bugs in Malone 09:56 Keybuk sivang: it's been "to be replaced by something in Launchpad" for a while now 09:57 lucas I've heard quite a lot of comments about nda's output not being considered very helpful by debian maintainers 09:57 sivang Keybuk: ah, I see. I guess this should come rather quick then not now Soyuz is pushed to landing. 09:57 Keybuk lucas: nobody's ever made them to me 09:57 lucas (like: it doesn't list source packages by maintainer) clearly the output of any automated tool is going to be 09:57 Kamion less useful than people reporting bugs with patches manually 09:57 Kamion although, yes, source packages by maintainer would be useful to me even :) 09:57 Keybuk lucas: no, but it provides something for Debian to write their own page like that 09:58 Keybuk http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/PATCHES 09:58 Keybuk ^ was added at Debian's request so they could build systems around "the current Ubuntu patch set" 09:58 Keybuk the Debian PTS uses it, for example it's far easier for Debian to write things to their 09:58 Keybuk taste than to file bugs, and have us do it when we have time 09:59 lucas my point is not about debian collaboration. It's about nda/mom not being as good as they could be. 09:59 Keybuk they do the job well enough 10:00 Keybuk everything could be better 10:00 Keybuk but at some point you have to stop polishing and move on 10:00 lucas ok 10:00 lucas I'm not really satisfied, but I think we can move to next point 10:01 lucas since nothing else is going to get out of this one 10:01 Keybuk I'll happily take suggestions for improvement via e-mail, if they're good ideas 10:01 Keybuk but yes 10:01 Keybuk let's move on 10:01 Keybuk any other business? 10:02 Keybuk ok then 10:02 Keybuk see you all in two weeks, everyone 10:03 dholbach see you Keybuk :-) === dholbach hugs Keybuk. 10:04 ogra Keybuk, thanks for running the meeting :) }}}