== Log ==
UTC -6
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Jun 04 12:00:43 -->	You are now talking on #ubuntu-testing
Jun 04 12:00:43 ---	Topic for #ubuntu-testing is Testing of Ubuntu | Hardy Final testing, download script: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Isoscript | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing | Reports: http://qa.ubuntu.com | Your ideas are welcome: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
Jun 04 12:00:43 ---	Topic for #ubuntu-testing set by stgraber at Tue Apr 22 12:25:42 2008
Jun 04 12:00:48 -->	persia (n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia) has joined #ubuntu-testing
Jun 04 12:00:57 *	ogasawara waves
Jun 04 12:01:06 *	cgregan hello!
Jun 04 12:01:10 <pedro_>	ahoj!
Jun 04 12:01:15 -->	ecubuntu_bb (n=ecubuntu@32.158.223.204) has joined #ubuntu-testing
Jun 04 12:01:18 <stgraber>	hello
Jun 04 12:01:23 <bdmurray>	hi
Jun 04 12:01:37 <sbeattie>	hey
Jun 04 12:02:03 <heno>	hello all!
Jun 04 12:02:17 <cgregan>	What type of rain in Portland today? :-)
Jun 04 12:02:36 *	bdmurray cries
Jun 04 12:02:43 <pedro_>	I also have rain here :-((
Jun 04 12:02:49 <cgregan>	here too
Jun 04 12:02:55 <sbeattie>	bdmurray: it is rose festival, it's supposed to rain now.
Jun 04 12:03:00 <heno>	greetings from sunny Oxford :)
Jun 04 12:03:02 <stgraber>	I had rain an hour ago
Jun 04 12:03:06 <bdmurray>	Its been raining all year though
Jun 04 12:03:10 -->	effie_jayx (n=effie_ja@ubuntu/member/effie-jayx) has joined #ubuntu-testing
Jun 04 12:03:12 <stgraber>	now it's sunny again (maybe a bit too much ? :))
Jun 04 12:03:12 <cgregan>	thunder and lightning as a bonus here
Jun 04 12:03:25 <davmor2>	hello from sunny, sunny wolverhampton :)
Jun 04 12:03:49 <heno>	my home town of Bergen, Norway had 100+ days of consecutive rain days last year
Jun 04 12:04:07 <davmor2>	are we having the meeting here today then as there already seems to be one in the #ubuntu-meeting
Jun 04 12:04:18 <stgraber>	davmor2: yep
Jun 04 12:04:20 <heno>	ok, shall we start?
Jun 04 12:04:25 <cgregan>	heno: wow..the most I saw was 90 straight in Portland
Jun 04 12:04:41 <pedro_>	gosh and i'm complaining for having a week of it
Jun 04 12:04:48 <heno>	we fittingly have an agenda item about meeting times at the end
Jun 04 12:04:58 <heno>	#startmeeting
Jun 04 12:05:21 <heno>	TOPIC: Intrepid QA specifications - Decide which specifications we actually target for Intrepid
Jun 04 12:05:58 <heno>	let's work our way down https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs
Jun 04 12:06:34 <heno>	* kernel-bug-migration is well under way
Jun 04 12:06:38 <stgraber>	sorry for not writing mines (except from the subject) but it's a busy week here :(
Jun 04 12:06:47 <effie_jayx>	I'm from my cellphone . I'll be in my desktop in a couple of minutes
Jun 04 12:07:24 <heno>	* fixed-bug-verification - this needs some updating for intrepid
Jun 04 12:07:56 <heno>	but basically it's sbeattie taking over this task from pedro_ this cycle
Jun 04 12:08:19 <heno>	we should also move the tracking from the wiki to something better
Jun 04 12:09:08 <heno>	* useful-bug-metrics - spec looks good, though I'd like to see a few more metric examples
Jun 04 12:09:28 <heno>	bdmurray: do you agree with my latest updates there?
Jun 04 12:10:36 <bdmurray>	heno: yes
Jun 04 12:11:18 <heno>	bdmurray: ok, can you flesh that out with some more examples?
Jun 04 12:11:34 <bdmurray>	heno: suer
Jun 04 12:12:17 <heno>	* self-testing-desktop - this is an optional item for Ara after desktop test automation, Low priority target
Jun 04 12:13:09 <heno>	* mobile-automated-tests - needs a bit more drafting IMO, use cases and such
Jun 04 12:13:35 <cgregan>	heno: Yes...I plan to put some more time into it this week
Jun 04 12:13:54 <heno>	cgregan: do you need some guidance with that? we could do a phone call about it. let me know
Jun 04 12:13:54 <cgregan>	put gobby notes in from UDS, but need to flesh out
Jun 04 12:14:02 <heno>	ok
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Jun 04 12:14:15 <cgregan>	heno: I will look at others for inspiration
Jun 04 12:14:27 <cgregan>	If I have questions I will ping you
Jun 04 12:14:41 <heno>	right. I know mobile is in a crunch ATM
Jun 04 12:14:58 <heno>	with your wonky release schedule :)
Jun 04 12:15:18 <cgregan>	heno: hehe...true...but I should still have a couple hours to put toward the spec
Jun 04 12:16:11 <heno>	* desktop-automated-tests - needs updating post UDS
Jun 04 12:16:23 <heno>	I don't think Ara is here today
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Jun 04 12:16:54 <heno>	pedro_: could you help her merge in some notes from UDS?
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Jun 04 12:17:16 <heno>	We will focus on LDTP AFAIK this time, etc.
Jun 04 12:17:18 <pedro_>	heno: sure
Jun 04 12:17:25 <heno>	pedro_: thanks
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Jun 04 12:18:11 *	stgraber has to go afk for a minute
Jun 04 12:19:23 <heno>	* fix-validation-tracking - should we not merge this in with 'fixed-bug-verification'? There is a slight difference, but it will cause endless confusion as it is
Jun 04 12:19:41 <heno>	the infrastructure we use to track it might be the same
Jun 04 12:20:01 <LaserJock>	heno: if I may, I've been working on a script for MOTU SRU to better keep track of the SRUs
Jun 04 12:20:13 *	stgraber is back
Jun 04 12:20:30 <heno>	LaserJock: ok great, it that viewable somewhere?
Jun 04 12:20:32 <LaserJock>	I would be happy to contribute it or work with somebody on a plan
Jun 04 12:20:53 <LaserJock>	heno: current results are at http://laserjock.us/files/ubuntu/bug_list.html
Jun 04 12:20:54 <sbeattie>	LaserJock: I'm interested
Jun 04 12:21:01 <heno>	cool, perhaps it should be merged with http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
Jun 04 12:21:27 <LaserJock>	heno: yeah, I was planning on having a couple pages for different SRU issues
Jun 04 12:21:36 <stgraber>	LaserJock's one looks better :)
Jun 04 12:21:44 <persia>	heno: I think those two pages serve different purposes.
Jun 04 12:21:49 <heno>	is it on UbuntuWire?
Jun 04 12:22:02 <LaserJock>	if bdmurray's -proposed bugs tag goes through I'd like to add support for that as well
Jun 04 12:22:03 <persia>	One helps track aging of current -proposed, and the other helps track work-in-progress pre-proposed
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Jun 04 12:22:23 <LaserJock>	heno: not yet, I've just been recently hacking on it. I wanted it a little further along before making it "live"
Jun 04 12:22:30 <bdmurray>	LaserJock: one thing we do is tag bugs if they are hardware specific does your script look at tags at all?  Are many *verse bugs hardware specific?
Jun 04 12:22:38 <heno>	it would be nice to track the issues before they go into -proposed where possible and they should go into an archive after release
Jun 04 12:23:07 <LaserJock>	bdmurray: I do look at tags (verification-done for instance), and no, we don't often have hardware specific bugs
Jun 04 12:23:17 <LaserJock>	my script uses python-launchpad-bugs
Jun 04 12:23:26 <LaserJock>	so kinda whatever you can get out of that we can do
Jun 04 12:23:29 <heno>	persia: ok, it would be great to cover that in one place
Jun 04 12:24:09 <persia>	heno: Quite possibly, or at least one portal with a few views.  Might want to confirm with the archive-admins just in case they have some other use for pending-sru.html
Jun 04 12:24:32 <heno>	indeed
Jun 04 12:24:43 <LaserJock>	for me as a MOTU SRU person there's sort of 3 things I want to track. 1) stuff that's not on my radar and maybe should be. SRUs that perhaps having had our team subscribed or bugs in -proposed packages
Jun 04 12:24:58 <LaserJock>	2) The current list of packages needing approval
Jun 04 12:25:16 <LaserJock>	3) list of packages needing testing so we can move that along
Jun 04 12:25:31 <LaserJock>	and of course knowing when their done so we make sure pitti gets to them
Jun 04 12:26:42 <LaserJock>	that's what I'm working on and would be happy to contribute what I've got and a bit of time to work on it with people if they'd like
Jun 04 12:26:56 <heno>	none of these pages actually track test submissions as the qa.u.c site currently does
Jun 04 12:27:21 <LaserJock>	yes, that's the key that I'd love to see
Jun 04 12:27:29 <heno>	should we simply make a template for tracking that on the bug itself
Jun 04 12:27:32 <LaserJock>	currently testing can get a bit wild
Jun 04 12:27:47 <LaserJock>	right now the SRU policy has people write a Test Case
Jun 04 12:27:49 <heno>	it could contain key words that we could grep for
Jun 04 12:28:04 <persia>	Or we could use tags in some way
Jun 04 12:28:11 <heno>	and then display the result in summary for on the page
Jun 04 12:28:32 <LaserJock>	what I would love would be to have a qa.u.c tracker grab that Test Case and display it and let people submit results there
Jun 04 12:28:52 <bdmurray>	I was thinking the test case could also be an attachment with a standarized name
Jun 04 12:29:07 <sbeattie>	I suspect that would be easier to pull out.
Jun 04 12:29:12 <bdmurray>	python-launchpad-bugs could be modified to to get that attachment
Jun 04 12:29:36 <persia>	bdmurray: The problem with attachments is that they are hard to see except programatically.
Jun 04 12:29:59 <heno>	right. There is benefit to storing everything on the bug and then pulling it out for display
Jun 04 12:30:13 <--	nand has quit ("leaving work")
Jun 04 12:30:21 <sbeattie>	hmm, could we extend the greasmonkey scripts to inline testcase attachments?
Jun 04 12:30:30 <heno>	but you can use search in your browser :)
Jun 04 12:30:35 <bdmurray>	I think there must be a technical solution where you can do both
Jun 04 12:30:45 <persia>	sbeattie: That doesn't help lots of people who don't use the greasemonkey scripts :(
Jun 04 12:31:05 <bdmurray>	Whether it be greasemonkey or python-launchpad-bugs putting the attachment in the description
Jun 04 12:31:15 <persia>	Maybe someone could check with the LP team about a clean solution that works both programmatically and visually?
Jun 04 12:32:20 <heno>	ok, this clearly needs more discussion; let's take it to the mailing list or after the meeting
Jun 04 12:32:45 <heno>	sbeattie: can you organise that and get input from everyone?
Jun 04 12:32:52 <sbeattie>	heno: yes.
Jun 04 12:32:58 <LaserJock>	anyway, I'd like to offer what I can for this project
Jun 04 12:33:18 <LaserJock>	though that may not be a whole lot :-)
Jun 04 12:33:36 <heno>	I think we can agree that this will be targeted this cycle, but some details still need sorting out
Jun 04 12:33:49 <sbeattie>	LaserJock: one extension I'd like to see is tracking of released updates, they disappear once they fall off of the tracking webpages.
Jun 04 12:34:02 <heno>	Let's try to have the spec finalised by Monday
Jun 04 12:34:16 <LaserJock>	sbeattie: ah, yes, I think that can be done
Jun 04 12:34:44 <sbeattie>	heno: did you still want to merge this in with fix-validation-tracking
Jun 04 12:35:50 <heno>	sbeattie: or if not we should rename that to hot-bug-watch or something to reduce confusion
Jun 04 12:36:10 <heno>	the tracking required is similar
Jun 04 12:36:25 <heno>	but the audience may be quite different
Jun 04 12:37:00 <heno>	the sru tacking will be used by more people
Jun 04 12:37:13 <heno>	tracking even
Jun 04 12:38:33 <heno>	IMO we should use the same technology for these two cases
Jun 04 12:38:45 <heno>	anyone else have strong views?
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Jun 04 12:39:35 <heno>	The main point of fix-validation-tracking is to track testing of fixes that have gone in after Beta, RC and final freezes
Jun 04 12:39:48 <heno>	to make sure they don't break things
Jun 04 12:40:01 <heno>	so very similar to the SRU case
Jun 04 12:40:13 <heno>	but needs a separate page of course
Jun 04 12:40:34 <heno>	sbeattie: but yeah, I think those could live on the same spec
Jun 04 12:40:49 <sbeattie>	that's fine with me.
Jun 04 12:41:48 <heno>	* package-status-pages - UI Changes is 'TBD', but could perhaps just be removed
Jun 04 12:42:12 <heno>	stgraber: did you read my mail about this and the QA site?
Jun 04 12:42:23 <stgraber>	yep
Jun 04 12:42:51 <heno>	what do you think about implementing this in python outside of any CMS?
Jun 04 12:43:22 <stgraber>	we'll have to see how we want the output to be
Jun 04 12:43:29 <heno>	that would allow us to simply build on the work already done by Leann and Brian
Jun 04 12:43:37 <stgraber>	it may be some generic report, parsable page instead of html as they currently are
Jun 04 12:43:55 <stgraber>	or eventually replacing the output by DB queries in some cases but I'm fine with keeping the base scripts as standard python
Jun 04 12:43:59 <heno>	stgraber: see the two layout proposals on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/PackageStatusPages :)
Jun 04 12:44:30 <stgraber>	we also do that with our current LP integration scripts, so that's similar to what we currently do :)
Jun 04 12:44:40 <heno>	we should actually make machine-friendly versions from the start too
Jun 04 12:44:50 <stgraber>	well, if that's only taking a .png from a place and displaying it, that'll be easy :)
Jun 04 12:44:53 <heno>	ok, cool
Jun 04 12:45:10 <stgraber>	yeah, I love machine-friendly (cdimage.u.c would also need that :))
Jun 04 12:45:48 <heno>	so do we need to vote on the layout? :) or take further suggestions?
Jun 04 12:46:15 <davmor2>	no 2
Jun 04 12:47:10 <bdmurray>	2 is hot
Jun 04 12:47:48 <davmor2>	I don't think no 1 will lend itself to the rest of the site.
Jun 04 12:47:53 <stgraber>	+1 for no2 (of course :))
Jun 04 12:48:07 <stgraber>	sorry, I need to leave for 15-20 minutes ...
Jun 04 12:48:46 <ogasawara>	I'll update the spec
Jun 04 12:49:02 <heno>	so, should we do that as static pages via python, or use the drupal infrastructure?
Jun 04 12:49:25 <heno>	the latter would save us doing theme work
Jun 04 12:49:29 <davmor2>	heno: what ever is easiest to implement and maintain
Jun 04 12:49:51 <bdmurray>	I think we want to be able to make changes quickly as we are developing it
Jun 04 12:49:58 <heno>	we could just pull in the main page part from pre-generated HTML (?)
Jun 04 12:50:17 <davmor2>	heno: couldn't you use the drupal framework and just insert the image create in python
Jun 04 12:50:42 <persia>	images tend to be a separate http call, which makes that sort of thing fairly easy
Jun 04 12:51:25 <heno>	ok, so the example has only images in the middle, but we would probably want more content there too
Jun 04 12:52:14 <heno>	stgraber: could you make a proof-of-concept page in drupal that pulls in static content to the main page and portlets?
Jun 04 12:52:55 <heno>	the super-plain html version could double as the machine-readable one perhaps
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Jun 04 12:54:47 <heno>	re remaining specs are for the qa website. I'm happy to extend the timeline for finalising those
Jun 04 12:55:01 <heno>	since stgraber has exams ATM
Jun 04 12:55:37 <heno>	are there any items we should spec up that are not currently on that page?
Jun 04 12:57:44 <heno>	ok, let's move to the next topic
Jun 04 12:57:55 <heno>	TOPIC: Hardy SRU Verifications for 8.04.1
Jun 04 12:59:08 <heno>	I guess the most difficult verifications are left towards the end
Jun 04 12:59:35 <heno>	sbeattie: do you have a feel for how we are positioned at this point?
Jun 04 13:00:11 <sbeattie>	I think we're doing okay, if lagging a little on verifications.
Jun 04 13:00:37 <sbeattie>	Some of the more difficult ones to verify involve bugfixes in the installation process, I believe.
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Jun 04 13:01:21 <pitti>	hi
Jun 04 13:01:22 <slangasek>	bweep
Jun 04 13:01:35 <heno>	I've invited pitti and slangasek to give their views also
Jun 04 13:01:46 <pitti>	what's the question?
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Jun 04 13:02:08 <heno>	we are talking about how we are doing in terms of getting verifications in place for hardy.1
Jun 04 13:02:39 <heno>	pitti: I remember that we were often stuck with some stragglers in the past at the end
Jun 04 13:02:48 <heno>	often blocked on available hw
Jun 04 13:03:03 <pitti>	I'd say that about 2/3 of SRUs get verified within 7 days
Jun 04 13:03:11 <heno>	we should try to get an overview of such potential blockers early this time
Jun 04 13:03:16 <pitti>	but many of the 'less interesting' ones have bad or no feedback
Jun 04 13:03:30 <pitti>	http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html mentions the #days a package resides in -proposed already
Jun 04 13:03:48 <pitti>	some of them are installer related
Jun 04 13:03:50 <heno>	bad as in reported failures or not good enough quality of feedback?
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Jun 04 13:04:07 <pitti>	solving that will require to wait until linux -19 is in, build d-i against it, and build CDs
Jun 04 13:04:14 <pitti>	everything else can be tested on an installed system
Jun 04 13:04:21 <pitti>	heno: no feedback
Jun 04 13:04:37 <pitti>	heno: we have a few with "regression!" feedback, they are marked as v-failed
Jun 04 13:04:49 <heno>	right
Jun 04 13:04:54 <stgraber>	re
Jun 04 13:04:57 <sbeattie>	or that the fix was incomplete.
Jun 04 13:05:18 <pitti>	sbeattie: right, that happens sometimes
Jun 04 13:05:31 <pitti>	but an incomplete fix is not a reason to reject the entire SRU if it fixes other things
Jun 04 13:05:35 <pitti>	we just keep the bug open
Jun 04 13:05:41 <heno>	pedro_: suggested we appeal more widely for help with SRU testing
Jun 04 13:05:51 <pitti>	a regression needs a followup upload, of course
Jun 04 13:06:00 <pitti>	yeah, that would be very good
Jun 04 13:06:06 <heno>	stgraber: could you arrange QA blog access for sbeattie so he can use that?
Jun 04 13:06:15 <stgraber>	sure
Jun 04 13:06:41 <heno>	ok so so far so good, we just need more hamsters :)
Jun 04 13:06:54 <heno>	we'll revisit this next week as well
Jun 04 13:07:08 <pitti>	if a bug even just says "I have used that new version for three days without a problem", that's already very useful
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Jun 04 13:07:40 <sbeattie>	Yeah, there's two aspects of increasing interest:
Jun 04 13:07:52 <sbeattie>	1) validating specific fixes
Jun 04 13:08:05 <heno>	pitti: have you seen https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/proposed-tracking/+bugs ?
Jun 04 13:08:07 <sbeattie>	2) general usage to catch regressions.
Jun 04 13:08:43 <pitti>	heno: no, I didn't; what is it?
Jun 04 13:09:03 <heno>	counting people using hardy-proposed
Jun 04 13:09:19 <heno>	(in a very improvised maner)
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Jun 04 13:09:40 <pitti>	oh, nice!
Jun 04 13:10:29 <heno>	bdmurray: could you set up a p-lp-b query to count the comments in those bugs?
Jun 04 13:10:52 <bdmurray>	heno: sure
Jun 04 13:11:13 <heno>	sbeattie: right. perhaps you should blog about a few examples from #1
Jun 04 13:11:29 <sbeattie>	heno: sure, can do.
Jun 04 13:11:41 <heno>	I've already blogged about #2, but we can revisit that on mailing lists also
Jun 04 13:12:03 <heno>	ok, final topic: Weekly Meeting Scheduling
Jun 04 13:12:27 <stgraber>	sbeattie: done you can now access http://qa.ubuntu.com/node/add/story
Jun 04 13:12:35 <heno>	I wonder if we should bring the meeting time back to a fixed time each week?
Jun 04 13:12:49 <heno>	that would reduce confusion
Jun 04 13:13:06 <heno>	I would suggest 17.00 UTC
Jun 04 13:13:13 <stgraber>	ane make sure it's posted on the fridge :)
Jun 04 13:13:23 <heno>	indeed
Jun 04 13:13:41 <stgraber>	+1 for 17:00 UTC
Jun 04 13:13:41 <davmor2>	+1
Jun 04 13:13:51 <bdmurray>	+1
Jun 04 13:13:54 <ogasawara>	+1
Jun 04 13:14:06 <pedro_>	ok for me +1 
Jun 04 13:14:20 <sbeattie>	+1 as long as no other meeting conflicts.
Jun 04 13:14:31 <heno>	stgraber has a change of schedule now and liw is not required for these meetings anymore (and those were there original reasons for the split)
Jun 04 13:14:53 <heno>	that was easy :)
Jun 04 13:14:58 <stgraber>	yeah
Jun 04 13:15:02 <heno>	17.00 UTC it is
Jun 04 13:15:15 *	persia likes rotation.  This has been an informative meeting, but I'd never make 17:00 unless there were exceptional circumstances
Jun 04 13:15:15 <persia>	(on the other hand, you all do all the work, so my vote oughtn't count for much)
Jun 04 13:16:18 <cgregan>	17.00 works for me.
Jun 04 13:16:22 <heno>	persia: what are the boundaries of sane hours for you?
Jun 04 13:16:41 <heno>	(and why are you up now? :) )
Jun 04 13:17:10 <persia>	heno: My preferred hours of sleep are about 15:00 - 21:00, although I don't always reach them.
Jun 04 13:17:41 <persia>	(14:00 meeting overran, and interesting 16:00 meetings to watch rather than going straight to bed)
Jun 04 13:17:58 <heno>	ok, we have at least 3 people for whom those are core work hours :-/
Jun 04 13:18:03 <persia>	Plus I wanted to make sure that Jordan's code got shared during the spec review
Jun 04 13:18:47 <persia>	heno: No worries.  I'll only visit occasionally.  I'm more interested in integration, and with well publicised meetings and minutes, I oughtn't miss much that can't be fed by proxy :)
Jun 04 13:19:11 <heno>	pedro_: can you update the wiki and chase the Fridge?
Jun 04 13:19:41 <pedro_>	heno: yep, np 
Jun 04 13:19:59 <heno>	persia: ok cool. I'm sure we'll meet regularly now anyway
Jun 04 13:20:09 <heno>	any other topics?
Jun 04 13:20:14 <heno>	(briefly)
Jun 04 13:20:40 <heno>	thanks everyone!
Jun 04 13:20:46 <heno>	#endmeeting}}}