= #Ubuntu-Meeting =
'''Ubuntu-Meeting Log 2004-11-15'''
{{{
Topic: Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC
Agenda:Located at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting
12:37 sparkes_x won't be here for start of doc meeting
12:37 sparkes_x I am logging
12:37 sparkes_x afk bbl
12:42 sivang sparkes_x : why x ? :)
12:43 sparkes is this better?
12:43 sparkes_x lot's of lag on my other client this direct one seems best today
12:43 sparkes_x bbl really late now ;-)
12:45 sivang how late is it for you?
12:46 sparkes_x it's almost midday ;-) but I have to be elsewhere for the next hour or so
01:02 sivang darn.
01:02 sivang had to crash x,
01:02 sivang tried to use nvtv to attend meeting through TV
01:04 sivang does anybody knows of other people who might be on their way to attend this?
01:06 sivang hmm, not much of reaction..is there anybody here alive?
01:08 sivang each person who's alive here, please say "beep" :)
01:09 sivang ok, let's try and start - see how long can I talk to myself :)
01:50 sivang yo asw!
01:50 sivang :)
01:50 sivang whassup?
01:50 asw not too much. I'd like to see if I can make the community meeting in Barcelona. Anybody else from the Doc team going to be there?
01:52 sivang I would love to be there, not sure if I could manage to though.
01:54 hornbeck hey no talking
01:54 asw I seem to have taken the unlikely role of Free Software zealot in the group but I do find it slightly grating that we don't uniformly follow the Debian/FSF policy of referring to this O/S as either "Ubuntu" full-stop or "Ubuntu GNU/Linux". I have the irrational desire to go and change every URL that has http://www.ubuntulinux.org to be http://www.ubuntu.com
01:54 hornbeck :-)
01:55 hornbeck alot of the url's don't seems to work with just www.ubuntu.com
01:56 Kamion ubuntulinux.org was an unfortunate consequence of domain handling politics
01:56 Kamion apart from the domain, I believe that we consistently refer to ourselves as simply "Ubuntu". If you find exceptions, please correct them.
01:57 asw hornbeck: can you give an example? Re. broken ubuntu.com links? There should be a standard procedure for filing doc/wiki bugreports (if there isn't already.)
01:57 sivang Kamion : we can make some clarification so to note our gratitude to GNU , what do you think?
01:58 hornbeck asw: I have not tried them in awhile but for the longest alot of the wiki pages did not work
01:58 asw Kamion: I had been told the same thing by Mako. I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the "Ubuntu O/S" full stop.
02:00 Kamion we standardised on simply "Ubuntu" to avoid the whole debate.
02:01 sivang ok, that's fine altogether. In docs and referneces we can just say "Ubuntu is a Debian GNU/Linux system, ..." for the record
02:01 Kamion it's not
02:01 sivang it's not ?
02:01 Kamion it's a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux; it's not a Debian GNU/Linux system
02:02 hornbeck nice beagle pics up the mozilla extentions now
02:02 sivang oops, yes I menat a based
02:02 asw in particular, hornbeck's proposed book should either be "Learning the Ubuntu Operating System" or "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" but -not- "Learning Ubuntu Linux" as it is currently called. I don't want to tell other people what to name their work, so, I find the whole thing very awkward. Kamion: yes standardize on Ubuntu (operating sytem) full-stop. Does that sound good to everybody else?
02:03 sivang asw : it pretty good to me.
02:03 sivang anyways,
02:03 sivang shall we start?
02:03 sivang Has everybody glanced at the agenda?
02:03 hornbeck is sparkes here?
02:03 sivang hmm good point
02:03 sivang let's see
02:04 sivang if no one objects, I don't mind waiting 10 more minutes before we start..:) so maybe every interested party would get the chance
02:05 George^Deka hi all
02:05 hornbeck hello
02:05 asw hi
02:05 hornbeck yes sivang I think we need to wait a few for people strolling in
02:06 sivang yes I see now
02:07 sivang hey plovs!
02:07 hornbeck plovs!!!!!!
02:07 hornbeck you know its amazing how in a chat you act so excited about seeing another grown man
02:07 hornbeck hmmm
02:08 hornbeck lets retract a couple of the !!! from that
02:08 sivang hi lulu, good to see you here :)
02:08 lulu Hi all! Great to see such a turnout - sorry I'm late - been working with plovs
02:09 plovs_work hi guys!
02:09 sivang no it's ok, we're still waiting a bunch for people strolling in...
02:09 hornbeck I think we are pretty good now
02:10 lulu sivang: is it a standup meeting? I may be a bit behind on email - do we have an agenda and a time limit?
02:10 sivang lulu : I've yet to think of a time limit, but the agenda is linked from the topic
02:10 plovs_work my time-limit 45 minutes, i have a meeting afterwards
02:10 lulu ahh - there it is - thanks :o)
02:11 hornbeck I work in about a hour
02:11 plovs_work who makes a backup of this whole thing and sends it to enrico?
02:11 asw i can do that gladly.
02:12 lulu asw:thank you!
02:12 hornbeck sivang: want to start
02:12 plovs_work so, shall we go from top to bottom then on the http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting ?
02:12 sivang yo enrico my man!
02:13 enrico Hello all!
02:13 sivang thank you enrico for managin this,
02:13 plovs_work the man himself!
02:13 lulu hey enrico! will you chair the meeting then?
02:13 sivang enrico : ?
02:13 enrico lulu: I can do it, not sure for how much, but I'm confident I can spend at least an hour here
02:14 enrico I'm loading galeon and getting to the docmeeteing page
02:14 asw enrico: seems that others have to go in an hour too. hornbeck, plovs...
02:14 sivang galeon???
02:14 enrico sivang: a web browser
02:14 sivang it's oldie , isn't it?
02:15 enrico yes
02:15 sivang that's why the ???
02:15 sivang :)
02:15 lulu guys....... :o) shall we begin!?
02:15 enrico Let's begin!
02:15 sivang yes!
02:15 enrico Who's there?
02:16 enrico * Enrico
02:16 sivang * Sivan
02:16 asw * asw
02:16 hornbeck * hornbeck
02:16 lulu * lulu
02:16 ChrisH * ChrisH
02:16 George^Deka * George^Deka
02:16 sivang we have several new people here, I would like them to shortly introduce themselves
02:17 enrico Let's begin from the beginning: state of the documentation team
02:17 enrico who's who and who does what
02:18 hornbeck can I start?
02:18 enrico hornbeck: sure, please
02:18 hornbeck ok
02:19 hornbeck I am setting up a svn server for the doc team
02:19 hornbeck it will be active the beginning of next week and be hosted out of my home
02:19 hornbeck I have not done much doc work because I have been learning how to set this all up :-)
02:20 hornbeck I will be giving ssh accounts to certain doc members so if you would like to be on the list please contact me
02:20 asw hornbeck svn?
02:20 enrico asw: subversion
02:20 lulu hornbeck: Rationale for setup?
02:21 hornbeck lulu: Ubuntu dev's would not give us room to work on large files
02:21 hornbeck so I bought a bigger line into the house and some static ip's
02:21 sparkes_x how far down the agenda are we?
02:21 sivang not started
02:21 sivang :)
02:21 hornbeck sparkes just started
02:21 enrico asw: a version control system like CVS and Arch (if you ignore the authors of cvs, svn and arch telling you that they're all so extremely and fundamentally different ;)
02:21 sivang you didn't miss a thing
02:21 sivang :)
02:21 sparkes_x cool
02:21 asw um. I, personally, use GNU Arch. Canonical is also investing heavily in Arch (see Bazar).
02:21 hornbeck if we do not like svn, we can try something else
02:22 lulu hornbeck: i.e. working on books? who did you ask?
02:22 enrico lulu: mdz
02:22 sparkes_x I love svn but arch sounds, errrm interesting
02:22 hornbeck lulu: mdz
02:22 lulu ok - right.....
02:22 sivang I think we might altogether switch to Bazzar, might also help canonical in testing and patches
02:22 asw See http://www.canonical.com/projects/
02:22 lulu sivang: that is what I'd like to suggest - Robert Collins would help you hornbeck
02:23 hornbeck is that what everyone wants?
02:23 hornbeck to use arch and bazar when it is ready?
02:23 sivang plus it would make merging the repo into canonical, once this is approved by upranks
02:23 sparkes_x RCollins help hornbeck with what?
02:23 sparkes_x sivang, agreed
02:23 lulu sparkes_x: getting bazaar set up
02:24 hornbeck lulu: I was with the understanding that arch required more than one webserver
02:24 sparkes_x lulu, ta, makes sence now
02:24 sivang can we continue with agenda, and discuss technicalities at the end maybe?
02:24 enrico sivang: I agree
02:25 lulu hornbeck: ok - shall we say - Action point - contact Rob Collins re: requirements and present pros and cons of options to the team??
02:25 enrico Let's compress this in Hornbeck is working on setting up a VCS for the docteam to use for larger documents
02:25 hornbeck enrico: yes
02:25 enrico Enrico is happy to help hornbeck
02:25 sivang Let have some more team memebers tell whay they are up into currently, so to finish status item :)
02:26 enrico I can talk about me
02:26 sivang ok, as we have several new people here that would be good they know who you are :) go ahead
02:26 enrico I'm currently half-available, in Brasil for a conference
02:26 asw lulu, hornbeck: I'm setting up Arch for my own project, please, use me as a resource as well.
02:27 enrico I've been appointed at the documentation team secretary and I'm now working on setting up my position on this and to learn how to interact with Canonical
02:27 sivang enrico is going to be the person to complain too :)
02:27 sivang to
02:28 enrico In the EnricoZini wiki page you can find a list of advertised services from the secretary :)
02:28 sivang ok, I'll go next ?
02:28 enrico I think that's it. Questions welcome anytime
02:29 plovs_work i have been cleaning up the wiki, adding some icons and looking at the FrontPage
=== lulu Lulu is responsible for the Canonical and Ubuntu websites and making sure our Community's needs are met by the site and the wiki. Also - have been working with plovs on the APFrontPage
02:30 sivang My name is Sivan Green, I started working on the wiki some time ago, and a list of my current activies can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamCurrentWork
02:31 enrico lulu: do you mean that I've finally found the person to ask things for when I want to interact with Canonical?
02:31 sparkes_x I am Steve Parkes and I am writing a different book based on the current upstream docs, cos I am a free software zealot too ;-)
02:31 lulu enrico: fire away! - All - Please do not hesitate to be in touch and if I can help you I will.
02:32 sivang Currently paying special attention to new people who join us, as well as well as devising a more formal plan / page for that matter.
02:33 sivang anyone else?
02:33 George^Deka I am George Dekavalas, currently doing nothing been thinking about making the plunge into contributing back and tonight is just the start of it.
02:33 sparkes_x nice one George^Deka ;-) welcome aboard
=== ChrisH 's real name is Christoph Haas. I'm new to the devel side of Ubuntu. Sent an introduction to ubuntu-devel@ yesterday. I've been maintaining Debian projects like mentors.debian.net before and want to check if there is work for me here. :)
02:33 asw I am Alexander (Sasha) Wait. Recently self-apointed free software zealot. Willing test-subject for community procedures and evangelist for the use of the Ubuntu O/S in science. I also run an ALife group in Boston and am the new maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ.
02:34 enrico We should have an introduction of everyone now
02:34 lulu what a team :o)
02:34 sivang yes, I see some more people here, who hadn
02:35 sivang n't introduced themselves, for sake of new comers I propose they do :)
02:35 enrico Do people know of other active people who are not present here or written in the list?
02:35 hornbeck Ben Edwards dropped out
02:35 sivang what do you mean dropped out?
02:36 hornbeck he is no longer on the doc team
02:36 lulu Do you know why?
02:36 sivang since when?
02:36 sivang Was he mailing the list?
02:36 hornbeck lulu: yes, but he asked me not to say
02:36 hornbeck he was here first ,meeting and mailing list
02:37 lulu hornbeck: oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Is there anything we can do to encourage his return?
02:37 hornbeck lulu: I tried he said he was not interested in being a part anymore
02:37 plovs_work i wrote to him, not for now he said
02:37 hornbeck ok, lets try to speed up if we can :-)
02:38 hornbeck asw: farwell
02:38 sivang bye asw
02:38 hornbeck fairwell
02:38 lulu cheers!
02:38 enrico asw: bye
02:38 plovs_work asw: see ya!
02:38 George^Deka asw: cya
02:39 enrico Let's move on. I was thinking about asking people a list of wiki pages they maintain, but it would take time. Could everyone just list them in their wiki homepages?
02:39 lulu enrico: tools we are currently using?
02:39 enrico I know of Wiki and the upcoming version control system for large docs. And the mailing list.
02:40 hornbeck enrico: agreed, those are the only ones right now
02:40 lulu ok - have we got a final decision on the wiki markup language and for the website?
02:40 lulu for the record?
02:40 enrico We don't have a specific IRC channel, and I don't usually see IRC chats about the doc team: are there some happening?
02:41 sivang lulu : I thought we would leave how it's now - everybody can choose whatever he likes
02:41 enrico lulu: there was the idea of distinguishing between different stages of documents
02:41 hornbeck irc is happening in -devel
02:41 hornbeck lulu: I use ReST and moin
02:41 sivang lulu : I've seen you can choose what format of markup to save
02:41 enrico hornbeck: thanks. For the records, there's a lot of traffic in -devel and I don't follow it, so if you see me in and need me, just say my name and I'll see a notice
02:42 hornbeck enrico: I normally PM you
02:42 hornbeck :-)
02:42 plovs_work #ubuntu-doc would not be bad
02:42 hornbeck agreed
02:42 lulu ok - perhaps we should have one we recommend - so we can get consistency?
02:43 sivang let's agree for #ubuntu-doc for all our docdevel discussions, it's been great in serving us till now
02:43 plovs_work somebody has to find out about channelownership etc
02:43 George^Deka well in terms of markup to use what do people consider the best to us, for someone who has not edited a wiki before (no tendencies to one or other)
02:43 enrico [format] this idea that was around in the list was to use the easiest markup (Moin) for things everyone scraps on, since it has a very low barrier of entry. Then, if things evolve and need more structure and the people in the page want, it can be refactored in ReST
02:43 enrico Then eventually it can become a DocBook work if it grows up even more and the team of people that work on it feel like
02:43 plovs_work enrico, agreed, moin is easy but broken in zwiki, ReST is difficult but (more) complete
02:43 sparkes_x enrico, the other parts of the site don't support moin so moving to /docs would require new markup
02:44 enrico (from this recap I'm writing, I see a pattern emerging: "the people active on the page are the ones that decide" :)
02:44 sparkes_x enrico, that seemst o be the case
02:44 sivang I think we should be focusing on MoinMoin, really use the wiki is the scrap & sketch area.
02:44 lulu I had never edited a wiki before joining Canonical - moinmoin was very easy to learn. an should be fully supported by the ZWiki now....
02:45 sivang offline, full fledged stable docs should be docbook
02:45 enrico [wiki] we seem to have an agreement.
02:45 sparkes_x sivang, agreed
02:45 enrico Current wiki issues:
02:45 hornbeck sivang: yes, docbook is a must offline
02:45 enrico * speed (they're working on it, but nothing short term will happen)
02:45 enrico * things lacking from Moin (I see TableOfContents often mentioned), is there other things?
02:45 sivang so we've heared from lulu :-) thanks for your support though
02:46 enrico sivang: yes, I was recapping lulu message: lulu, sorry for missing the attribution
02:46 enrico * license of wiki contents
02:46 hornbeck sivang: I really like ReST on the wiki
02:46 sivang GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
02:46 sparkes_x enrico, gpl
02:47 hornbeck gpl
02:47 sparkes_x gpl is the best option for upstream
02:47 hornbeck ChrisH agreed
02:47 sparkes_x ChrisH, true
02:47 sparkes_x ChrisH, seconded ;-)
02:48 hornbeck docbook is for offline docs
02:48 hornbeck we have agreed on that
02:48 enrico lulu: jdub told me there was some offline discussion about wiki content license, but I never heard of outcomes
02:48 ChrisH hornbeck: It can be easily used to create online docs, too.
02:48 hornbeck ChrisH please send a link
02:48 enrico lulu: I tried asking twice in the warthogs list but I got no answer
02:48 sparkes_x ChrisH, don't offend the wiki fans ;-)
02:48 lulu enrico: Not sure of that myself - I am willing to find out - put e down for that action point.
02:48 enrico lulu: do you know of anything?
02:48 lulu and I'll get back to you all
02:48 enrico lulu: ok. Here we have an agreement on GPL
02:49 lulu enrico: ok
02:49 enrico lulu: if it's ok for them as well, we can proceed and put an explicit notice in the wiki
02:49 George^Deka I am sure i read somewhere that someone had an issue on using the GPL for docs, but im fine with it
02:49 ChrisH hornbeck: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ and http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
02:49 lulu enrico: I'd like to have a word with SABDFL on that issue ok?
=== ChrisH can help with providing Docbook-XML templates and Makefiles
02:49 hornbeck ChrisH: thank you
02:49 enrico It's important that there are no licensing issues in the wiki, or it would be a big problem when taking things from there into bigger doucments
02:50 sivang George^Deka : that was for GFDL
02:50 enrico lulu: ok. I tried already to talk with sabdfl about it, but with little success. I hope you're more lucky
02:50 enrico We're getting to the end of the wiki discussion. Someone has some missing feature to report?
02:50 lulu enrico: let's put a wiki page up of what the argument is and concerns raised and I will get a decision ok!?
02:51 sparkes_x we also need to take into account some parts of the wiki may be imported from elsewhere and have different licences
02:51 George^Deka sivang: maybe but could have sworn there was also an issue with GPL, because i knew there was the issues with GFDL (non-DFSG)
02:51 enrico lulu: ok. my original mail on warthogs can be used as base contents for the page
02:51 lulu sparkes_x: exactly.
02:51 sivang George^Deka : would you like to investiage and tell me your conclusions? this might be interesting.
02:51 enrico lulu: I can take care of creating the page
02:52 lulu enrico: good. Time is running short - let's move on.
02:52 sivang what page are we talking about?
02:52 enrico sivang: a recap on the licensing issue
02:52 sivang ok
02:52 George^Deka i will try, now trying to remeber where i saw it (me thinks it was ubuntu related or debian weekly news)
02:52 enrico Next point is: how to approach new members
02:52 sivang yes
02:52 sivang :)
02:53 lulu sivang: is there an ETA for a draft of the Initiation process so we can contribute wehn it's up there?
02:53 George^Deka well as far as i can tell as being new for like 8 hours now, having people actually respond to your emails of help helps
02:53 sivang lulu : I will have one by tommorow
02:53 lulu sivang: awesome!
02:54 sivang I would like to see we streamline the way we approach our new comers,
02:54 George^Deka i have had the issue with moz that they are all two busy to get back to you on if they want your help or not
02:54 hornbeck George same with mono-doc
02:54 hornbeck noone wants to help you
02:54 sivang together with a planned new comers TODO list, learning resources etc.
02:54 enrico I propose to have a DocTeam Dogma
02:54 enrico 1) All help mails should be answered
02:54 George^Deka lulu: brillant - can you mail the link cause i might forget otherwise - good place for me to learn
02:55 sivang bottom line, when someone approaches us and says "I wanna help"
02:55 sivang he should be able to do so in matter of days, no better ! in matter of hours...:)
02:55 enrico 2) RTFM is not an answer, unless it's nicely put and with a working link to the documentation
02:55 lulu George^Deka: which link?
02:55 hornbeck I am sorry everyone for my RTFM reply
02:55 George^Deka lulu: initiation process
02:55 enrico hornbeck: Don't worry: it happens
02:56 enrico hornbeck: there are habits we all carry from other communities
02:56 sivang no it's ok, We love you John Hornbeck :)
02:56 sladen hornbeck: ''do this and this and this. A more detailed overview can be found at ''
02:56 hornbeck yes, I know
02:56 lulu sivang: could u let the list know where the initiation doc is once it's up there?
02:56 sivang I would like us to see take up on the spirit of #gnome-love
02:56 sivang lulu : ofcourse,
02:56 sivang I would send the link to ML
02:57 George^Deka enrico: RTFM ?
02:57 hornbeck read the f**ing manual
02:57 enrico George^Deka: Read The Fine Manual
02:57 hornbeck enrico is being nice
02:57 enrico hornbeck: it's an acronym which has two expansions: one for the writer and one for the reader :)
02:57 George^Deka i should have known - it is 1am here
02:58 enrico About always responding to help messages, we have a deadlock problem
02:58 enrico Many help request don't get answered because everyone thinks someone else will answer
02:58 hornbeck everyone should answer if they see it first
02:58 hornbeck if you see it reply
02:58 sivang yes that is important
02:59 sivang so new people wouldn't get the feeling it
02:59 sivang no alie
02:59 sivang alive
02:59 lulu enrico: good point to have one person who is ultimately responsible? - sivang - do you want to answer these?
02:59 enrico hornbeck: good. third dogma
02:59 sivang (i can't type today, or anyday)
02:59 enrico 3) If you see it, reply
02:59 George^Deka As far as i am concerned the more replies the better, it makes you feel really wanted and that people are there to help you out.
02:59 sivang lulu : I will
02:59 plovs_work new people should go to the mailing-list or #ubuntu-doc
02:59 enrico George^Deka: very good point!
03:00 plovs_work we should be nice and then point them there
03:00 enrico George^Deka: usually one thinks duplicate replies should be avoided because they generate unnecessary traffic, but this is an artefact from when we had 9.6Kbps modems. We should get past it!
03:00 George^Deka one issue i did have today was there is no link from ubuntu mail-list page to the -doc ML - had to find it in a post from -users
03:00 sladen plovs_work: would inviting people to #ubuntu-help be more useful than clouding your documentation-discussion channel?
03:00 enrico Dogma 4
03:00 lulu George^Deka: yes - but we need to have someone ultimately responsible.
03:01 enrico 4) Don't worry about duplicate replies
03:01 George^Deka enrico: well thats what newbies are for
03:01 lulu I am responsible for answering the info and webmaster emails and that has been a comment from most people - we always get back to people and it's a highlight for us - I think it's very important to be a responsive distro.
03:01 plovs_work sladen, if they want help with doc-stuff they are welcome, not for general help
03:01 sladen plovs_work: nod, sorry, missed that bit
03:01 George^Deka lulu: but it took me a while to get to it so i could even join, if i wasn't persitant enough to find the archives i would have not been here tonight cause i didnt know it was happening
03:02 enrico George^Deka: please if you see
03:02 plovs_work we need one person who is responsible for those kind of things, helping newbies, newbie-docs etc
03:02 enrico George^Deka: please if you see other issues like that, write a mail to the list: you're raising very valuable issues we were not able to see
03:03 enrico plovs_work: sivan offered, if I'm not mistaken
03:03 George^Deka enrico: sure will thought i would bring it here if i could anyway, another issue i had to guess it was on freenode
03:03 sivang I think having a dedicated person for this task would be great, I am willing to voulenteer for that, but even so having other community memebers responsible for that would make a nice redundency in case I can't make it once in a while.
03:03 plovs_work enrico, thanks
03:03 lulu George^Deka: good point and sivan: thanks - I think that's a good call.
03:03 enrico sivang: yes, there could be a welcome team
03:03 plovs_work sivang, you'll do fine
03:04 enrico I'm happy to be in the welcome team
03:04 enrico Welcome team: sivang, enrico
03:04 sivang great
03:04 lulu done! What's next?
03:04 enrico Next point: offline documentation
03:04 hornbeck yes, I was about to type that
03:04 enrico Do we agree on docbook? Yes.
03:04 enrico Next point:
03:05 hornbeck yes
03:05 enrico :)
03:05 hornbeck we HAVE to start writing this stuff
03:05 hornbeck and decideing what is being brought over from debian
03:05 hornbeck and gnome
03:05 sivang I would like to see one goal we set up -
03:05 enrico Conversion strategies between different formats: should we discuss it now or just tackle it when the problem shows up?
03:06 enrico I propose to use the ancient philosophy "first get to do it, then document it, then automate it"
03:06 sivang I am ok with postponing it for when the problem shows up
03:06 George^Deka or leave it to next meeting
03:06 sivang yes it would be wise :) I wonder what brought me to put it htere in the first place...
03:06 enrico Next point, then
03:06 enrico License (again)
03:06 sivang GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
03:06 enrico I would #include
03:07 hornbeck are we going to fix debian docs?
03:07 hornbeck I am now on the debian-doc list and they are very outdated
03:07 enrico Do we need licensing differences between wiki and docbook documents?
03:07 sivang I don't think so
03:07 lulu hornbeck: and make them ubuntu-docs?
03:07 plovs_work we need a page, stating what docbook docs we need, i for one have no idea
03:07 hornbeck lulu: yes
03:07 lulu hornbeck: I like your thinking :o)
03:08 hornbeck I really would like to see alot of offline stuff for hoary
03:08 hornbeck I like the wiki but it is not a solid doc base
03:08 sivang I would like to raise up one goal for hoary, to pollish up already exisitng docs and especilly improving GNOME docs to include Ubuntu's quircks and differences from stock
03:08 lulu sivang: add it to the wiki under HoaryHedgehog
03:08 George^Deka I was thinking about it today, we need the wiki offline so it can just be used as help, with all the FAQ's etc i have been seeing around
03:09 hornbeck gnome2-user-doc will be the first thing in the new server
03:09 sivang lulu : ok, I will
03:09 George^Deka So it might be a case of converting it (wiki) to docbook
03:09 enrico If we get really good, we could do like de devels do with code: make patches and apply them to future versions of documents
03:09 sivang this is what I have in mind
03:09 sparkes_x wtf I thought I was the only person who cared about debian-docs ;-)
03:09 enrico But we can thing about that when we get really good
03:10 lulu George^Deka: we have a Help Centre in Plone, called Documentation, where we are hoping all FAQs, HowTos and books will sit.
03:10 hornbeck enrico: I have already begun talking to debian-doc guys about how I submit patches
03:10 sivang lulu : I would like also to have some of it compiled and to be installed in an ubuntusystem out the box, and be browseable through yelp
03:10 George^Deka lulu: granted, i still havent kicked debian and kde off this box yet. It will happen soon though
03:11 sivang lulu : that is the markup that is used for that section on the main site?
03:11 enrico hornbeck: cool!!
03:11 lulu sivang: we have a mix of html and structured text currently
03:11 enrico hornbeck: you mean we could team up with debian doc guys? That would be AWESOME! (or OUTSTANDING for the brits)
03:11 sparkes_x you lot are taking the piss now ;-) when I suggested debian docs everyone barfed
03:11 lulu sivang: I think structured text is easier for most pepes and will need help converting all pages to it.
03:11 hornbeck enrico: I posted to their list about helping, they were very happy to have me
03:12 hornbeck sparkes_x: You are not sexy like me so noone listens :-p
03:12 enrico hornbeck: you made by day!
03:12 sivang ChrisH : now here a team of debian who accepts new blood :)
03:12 enrico hornbeck: you made my day!
03:12 sparkes_x bollocks to this
03:12 sparkes_x you lot say one thing and mean another
03:13 sparkes_x we argued about debian docs for a week and everyone was against the idea
03:13 hornbeck sparkes: I hope you are joking
03:13 enrico sparkes_x: I wasn't
03:13 sparkes_x and now everyone is for the idea
03:13 sparkes_x enrico, true
03:13 sivang lulu : yelp eats DocBook XML, so I guess we might use the conversion script and see what results we can have in yelp
03:13 sparkes_x but everyone else (mostly) was
03:13 hornbeck I don't remember being against debian-docs
03:13 hornbeck I may have been
03:13 hornbeck who knows
03:13 sivang I surely wasn't against it
03:13 sparkes_x hornbeck, you where ;-)
03:14 hornbeck well you made me see the light :-)
03:14 sivang well, it's all evident on the mailing list archive
03:14 sivang if anyone cares to proove that, but we're not debian kiddies are we?
03:14 sivang :)
03:14 lulu sivang: ok - good. I am looking into Plone ATContentTypes and lingua plone for the site so we can deal with translations - it's going to be a little while tho to get that done.
03:14 hornbeck I am against most things till someone tells me why it is a good idea
03:14 sparkes_x hornbeck, debian is always a good idea ;-)
03:14 sivang hornbeck : I also talked you into it :)
03:14 ChrisH sivang: sorry, I missed a few lines (coworker interruption). I just read that we agree on Docbook. :)
03:15 sivang ChrisH : I think we do
03:15 hornbeck sivang, sparkes, enrico: all of you talked me into it
03:15 hornbeck ChrisH: yes
03:15 enrico Ok, I guess we're all happy that we all agree and we don't want to fight just because we do agree, isn't it? :)
03:15 sivang hahhaha
03:15 sivang yes
03:15 hornbeck no I just like to fight
03:15 sivang hornbeck, I suggest you put up a wiki page "Who wants to fight with me" and see what you can get :)
03:15 enrico People who like to fight meet at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-arena :)
03:15 ChrisH lol
03:16 George^Deka lol
03:16 hornbeck so it is agreed, we will work on converting debian-docs, and send any fixes back to debian
03:16 sivang yeah!
03:16 enrico Let's move on: Hoary milestone strategy
03:16 sivang yes
03:16 sivang Ok, First thing is to get some pollishing for documentation Hoary is already carrying
03:16 hornbeck Hoary milestone for me is, get alot of docs
03:16 sivang for instance, MAN pages
03:16 sivang isntalled HTML documents
03:17 sivang GNOME documentation
03:17 sivang info pages etc etc.
03:17 sparkes_x man pages are part of the deb
03:17 enrico hornbeck: you can write man pages in docbook! :)
03:17 enrico hornbeck: apt-get install docbook-to-man
03:17 hornbeck I still hate man pages
03:17 hornbeck they are ugly, and very criptic
03:17 sivang this might very well benefit other communities we are basin on, debian is one example.
03:18 hornbeck written by those smart people for smart people
03:18 plovs_work hornbeck, you should read openbsd man-pages, they are actually nice
03:18 ChrisH Sorry to get back a step. Which debian docs are supposed to be converted to docbook? Most of them are already in docbook format IIRC.
03:18 sivang plovs_work : BSD was my other exmaple :)
03:18 George^Deka well on my old deb system man was the only place i knew to turn other than readme
03:18 hornbeck ChrisH: convert debian docs to Ubuntu docs
03:18 ChrisH hornbeck: s/Debian/Ubuntu/ ? :)
03:18 sparkes_x ChrisH, they need to go from sgml to xml and then we start adding ubuntu isms to them
03:18 sivang make them Ubuntish
03:18 sparkes_x at least that was my fucking plan all along
03:18 ChrisH sparkes_x: ic
03:19 sivang sparkes_x : I am warning you for bad language :)
03:19 hornbeck sparkes_x: you are a angry little man
03:19 sivang watch it, hornbeck, enrico help!! :))
03:19 sparkes_x I resign from my post on the doc team, too many people argueing a lost cause and then changing their position
03:19 sladen sparkes_x: ;-)
03:19 sparkes_x so bye bye and enjoy the doc team without me
03:20 hornbeck what?
03:20 enrico Ehi, people, cool down.
03:20 hornbeck hmmm
03:20 sladen sparkes_x: oops, I was replying to your previous comment then...
03:20 hornbeck if that was my fault I am sorry
03:20 sparkes hornbeck: no worries see you later
03:20 hornbeck I thought he was joking
03:21 enrico ?
03:22 enrico I propose we move on at talk with sparkes later
03:22 ChrisH Someone please press F1.
03:22 George^Deka ChrisH: i did
03:23 enrico We were on Hoary milestones
03:23 lulu enrico: that's a good idea - mediation is needed :o)
03:23 plovs_work enrico, can we have a DocteamHoaryMileston page?
03:23 enrico I don't know how many milestones we can setup now, though
03:23 plovs_work make a pgae with priorities
03:23 hornbeck the Ubuntu book is a huge milestone
03:23 sivang enrico : agreed. I got a headache
03:24 George^Deka well looking at the hoarygoals page today i noticed under the targets of opportunity there seems to be a bit of stuff doc related the devs want, some of it even says bounty next to it
03:24 plovs_work hornbeck, and only, what, 4 months left
03:24 enrico I propose we get going writing the documentation we like to write, then reschedule a milestone meeting in a month or so
03:24 enrico plovs_work: 4 months? Uhm... then in a couple of weeks
03:24 hornbeck enrico: agreed
03:24 enrico Next point: Start working
03:25 plovs_work enrico, why don't you make a proposal, you are good at those
03:25 lulu sivang was going to put up a page in HoaryHedgehog - let's get our goals on there and prioritise what we need to get done for Hoary.
03:25 enrico plovs_work: you mean, for Hoary milestones? Ok. I can work on something
03:26 George^Deka do we know what the devs/cannonical want in the way of docs for hoary
03:27 enrico George^Deka: one problem with the devs is that they're goign to stabilize the feature list quite late
03:27 sivang yes, it would be nice to get an idea what they might require, before we set off to do docs of our own when big parts of already shipped software needs documented.
03:28 lulu George^Deka: Can u ask on the dev list as our representative? point them to the doc page in hoaryhedgehog and they can help prioritise and add what they tyhink is needed.
03:28 George^Deka enrico: true but some docs they might wish may not be so easy - especially if alot of it is from scratch
03:28 hornbeck enrico: saunm, complains of that alot
03:28 hornbeck shaunm
03:29 lulu George^Deka: and then the doc team can say what is possible to meet the Hoary deadline?
03:29 George^Deka lulu: sure ill do that, better join the list then - enrico just make sure you summarize what im doing its 1:30am here now
03:29 enrico George^Deka: summarize what you're doing?
03:30 lulu enrico: if we can have minutes of the meeting with action points, deadline and who is responsible on the wiki - that would be awesome.
03:30 enrico lulu: sure: it's my job to make a resume of this meeting
03:30 sivang enrico : and please do remind me all of the things I promised to do today, so I won't forget? :)
03:30 George^Deka enrico: lulu sumed it up for me
03:30 enrico I'm now a bit slow in answering because I have a very loud brasilian television set right next to me
03:31 enrico sivang: sure
03:31 sivang enrico : after all, this is the secretary cow speaking :)
03:32 enrico Uhm... di we still have things to discuss?
03:32 lulu yes!
03:32 enrico The "Start working" issue?
03:32 enrico Unfortunately, it's not my house
03:32 lulu guys - FrontPage - plovs has worked hard on this - we've pretty much incorporated the old front page into APFrontPage.
03:33 hornbeck I say APFrontPage be moved up
03:33 lulu can all check it and approve/advise on changes so we can make it the Canonical FronPage? :o)
03:33 lulu FrontPage that is!
03:33 sivang Would it be ok to agree now on the front page and them make modifications / comments ?
03:34 sivang lulu : you mena this is going to be the new wiki frontpage ?
03:34 hornbeck it looks great to me
03:34 lulu sivang: yup! that's the plan - as a good starting point......
03:35 hornbeck good job plovs, lulu
03:35 enrico Fine for me
03:35 sivang and tanks AP for the good work
03:36 lulu enrico: yes indeedy
03:36 enrico Ok, last point is start working
03:36 lulu plovs_work: ping!
03:36 plovs_work lulu, :-)
03:37 lulu plovs_work: we just wanted to say thanks for your hard work and we can make the page the new FrontPage!
03:37 sivang Maybe a milestone for hoary plan was too harsh,
03:37 sivang what about discussing close goals?
03:38 hornbeck I thought we would meet again about hoary goals?
03:39 lulu sivang: we have a To Do list on the wiki - close goals should go on there - Hoary can go on there - perhaps we need to make this a table with person responsible and deadline dates. - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
03:39 enrico hornbeck: yes.
03:39 sivang ok
03:39 enrico I'd say let's have some minutes for people to post items not in agenda, then close the meeting.
03:39 hornbeck Well I will be compiling the book into its order of the next couple weeks and calling on people to help in areas
03:40 hornbeck I will also start looking at debian docs that could help us and updating them to current
03:41 sivang is anybody keen to take up some work on pollishing documentation that already ships with Ubuntu?
03:41 enrico sivang: That can do together with the Debian teem
03:42 George^Deka well i may have a try at a fx doc as i mentioned on mailing list. But what else needs doing cause i dont have any doc work yet
03:42 enrico adding/fixing manpages and other doucmentation inside packages
03:42 sivang ok, and what about gnome-user-docs ?
03:43 sivang this is more than merely the user manual
03:44 lulu do you have a WartyWarthogDoc page where all the tasks are listed - what docs need work? then people can methodically go through them and take responsibility for what they are keen to do?
03:44 sivang lulu : good idea :)
03:44 sivang lulu : I had something similar on the /UDP pages,
03:45 sivang lulu : I will break things down and try put them in the relavent places for HOary
03:45 sivang I might need some help with that , though
03:45 lulu sivang: great - then each release can have it's goals set out by the doc team and the dev team can collaborate with doc team on it.
03:45 sivang yes
03:45 sivang enrico : what do you think?
03:45 hornbeck lulu: great idea
03:46 lulu great! guys I have to go in 5 - are we almost done?
03:47 sivang seems so
03:47 hornbeck same, here: work is calling
03:47 sivang enrico ?
03:47 enrico sure
03:47 lulu enrico: thanks very much!
03:47 enrico I declare the meeting finished, then. I will post the summary in the ubuntu-doc list as soon as I have it
03:47 enrico The Holy Cow moos
03:47 hornbeck enrico: thanks
03:48 hornbeck thanks everyone, great meeting
03:48 lulu :o) thanks all! Great to meet u guys.
03:48 plovs_work ok, thanks all!
03:48 George^Deka now its time for bed :P
03:48 sivang thank you everybody
03:48 sivang night George^Deka
03:48 sivang lamont_r : we have just ajorned
03:48 sivang :)
03:49 enrico Thanks everyone for attending, look forward to the oncoming work!
03:49 lamont_r sivang: 's ok.
03:50 hornbeck well I am off to work
03:50 hornbeck goodbye for now
03:51 plovs_work see you all in #ubuntu-doc !
03:51 lulu enrico: will u talk to sparkes asap? it would be a shame to have him go
03:51 enrico lulu: yes, I'll see what I can do
03:51 George^Deka did you see his resignation mail
03:51 ChrisH lulu: he has already posted on -doc. :(
03:51 enrico oh
03:52 ChrisH I wasn't sure whether it was a joke. Obviously he was serious about it.
03:52 lulu ChrisH: oh dear - he must've been very cheesed off....
03:52 sivang yes
03:53 sivang I reckon he didn't take so good the jokes me and horbeck made on account of the debian works
03:53 sivang I mean, he eventually said it was due to lack of time
03:53 sivang but..
03:55 sivang I just dind't understand why he said "everybody" where against his plans, I never said something against working up debiand docs
03:55 ChrisH Is he the "interface person" regarding the interchange of documentation between Debian and Ubuntu?
03:56 sivang I think that is George^Deka
03:57 plovs_work ChrisH, enrico is the interface, most of the time
03:57 sivang if I recall right the backlog
03:57 sivang at least he said he voulneteers for that
03:58 plovs_work that is right
04:02 plovs_work so guys, maybe you can start looking at the FrontPage, and flame away (in the mailinglist)
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